How and why safety procedures fail. TDA vs Striker vs LEM spinoff

[JustOneGun]

We had another good discussion about the pros and cons of TDA/Striker/LEM/DAO platforms. During these discussions we often start our thought process with the fact that accidents happen and this is how we are going to lessen the chance. I have no problem with that idea but we tend to stop there. We never talk about is what we are doing wrong to make them happen in the first place?

I believe there are some very real reasons that all ND/AD's happen. I believe they are training practices we develop that cause or allow them to happen.

To me there are three main reasons:

1. We have placed multiple procedures in our brain for the same physical act.

We see this with the draw where it's a hip holster for games and AIWB for CCW. For safety reasons it's the holstering that is so dangerous. Having a procedure where you move the cover garment away from the holster. Look into the holster to find any foreign object, if clear place the pistol into the holster up to the front of the trigger guard, see you trigger finger straight and outside of the trigger guard on the slide, tilt the muzzle slightly away so it's not pointed at any part of your body and place the pistol fully into the holster.

Then the second procedure we learn during dryfire. Finish dryfire, holster without looking or half ass the procedure because we, "Know" it's empty. Do this over and over again without thought.

Sometimes in real life those two procedures get mixed up. It's as thought the brain under stress or distraction just sometimes picks the wrong one. Depending on the circumstances it can lead to an ND.

2. We have unconscious procedures for physical acts that should remain conscious procedures.

In the two examples above we want the draw to be selected and then unconsciously done. For the holster, even for officers, it does not have to be unconscious. It should literally be done by the numbers. Holstering without thinking will make it into an unconscious procedure. It is unconscious procedures that sometimes get selected by our brain inappropriately under distraction or stress. i.e. at the worst possible time.

For civilians I think it would be a good discussions to have, is it even necessary to holster after a shooting. I personally train a holster by the numbers. If you feel speed holstering is a good skill then perhaps one could learn it by the numbers and then over time speed those numbers up. So when the time comes you're mind says holster and it is fast but still, 1,2,3,4. I don't like that but it certainly better than just cramming the pistol in the holster.

3. We have poor, not well thought out procedures.

Of course if we have a procedure that does not account for how the ND/AD would happen then it isn't going to work no matter how well it's implemented.


I'd be curious what other instructors, high end competitors and Safety officers think about the why and how of the ND/AD's that they've seen. I think it would help new and experienced shooters to hear how we avoid people shooting themselves during the draw, holster, movement, CQB/retention shooting, etc.

*I don't really think it would be helpful to discuss the different platforms unless they are specific to the procedure. We beat that one into the weeds a few times recently. Just the generic procedures that folks teach and the why of their safety procedures would be great.

[RJ]

Useful thread. My AD story falls into #2, I believe.

"ND at Hot Range: Training Scar?"

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-Training-Scar

To the Why and How: noobie shooter goes to 1 USPSA match, then NDs at first time at a hot range, due to unconscious UL&SC habit. Fortunately gun was pointed down range.

To the How to avoid:

1. Do not allow UL&SC at matches to be an unconscious habit.

STOP.

Drop the mag.

LOOK for the round to eject as you rack the slide. ACTUALLY LOOK.

LOOK at the chamber as you UL&SC to the RSO. ACTUALLY LOOK.

THINK about what you just did as you hammer down. THINK.

2. At a live range, TELL YOURSELF, I AM AT A LIVE RANGE.

Think about the trigger press EVERY TIME.

THINK.

About all I got, will be interested in the responses. My experience last year at Tac Con still troubles me.






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[octagon]

Good post and thoughts on holstering ND/AD Justonegun. I think you hit several valid issues. Unfortunately there is no database or hard numbers that I am aware of that would indicate how many ND/ADs there are related to holstering,drawing,moving or holding a threat at gunpoint(or ready position) so it is hard to say what is most problematic and for what reason either finger on the trigger or obstruction or holster pressing trigger either resulting in an AD/ND. I believe that holstering is probably the most common procedure being performed when a ND/AD occurs so that should be more focused upon and more carefully done(consciously) but other procedures also have risk for NDs.

First I should say that I consider almost every discharge when not intended to be a ND unless the gun was heavily and/or wrongly modified and a bump or vibration causes it to discharge. Dropping a gun when it is expected to be drop safe but isn't is also what I consider AD even if there may be some negligence in dropping it, it shouldn't discharge. Holstering and having the gun discharge due to an obstruction mixes negligence by not verifying the holster is clear but also some accident if it is done by LEO or others where they are holstering quickly to go hands on or switch to an alternate tool depending on circumstances changing. This can happen with CC citizens but is less likely because they usually have less options and support for using other force tools,Cuffing,pepper spray,TASER,baton) and often may be alone or with non trained family/friends.

My thought on any procedure being performed except holstering comes down to finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard but also indexed on a consistent location where slipping or startle reflex is unlikely to cause the trigger finger to enter the trigger guard or strike the trigger. I believe these NDs are less common than holstering in part because we as defensive and competitive shooters are concentrating and focus our attention when performing these techniques much more than when we holster. I think often people have "let their guard down" on safety after shooting and after action procedure and just holster.

Just my opinion

[JustOneGun]

Octagon,

I agree. That, "let your guard down" to me is just doing something subconsciously. There are training techniques to keep that from being a subconscious act, even in speed holstering.

[YVK]

Unfortunately there is no database or hard numbers that I am aware of that would indicate how many ND/ADs there are related to holstering,drawing,moving or holding a threat at gunpoint(or ready position) so it is hard to say what is most problematic

There is some data from the Gunsite that GJM likes to quote and some members here provided their own information. Some data suggests no difference in frequency distribution between draw vs holstering vs others, while others stated that holstering was more worrisome.

I personally don't think that it is possible to get rid of a subconscious acts when talking about something that people do frequently, regularly and repetitively. It eventually becomes inhabituated and often times subconscious. I think that most NDs are a result of disconnect between stated and agreed upon safety rules and principles vs developing a yet again inhabituated set of behaviors to support those rules.

[voodoo_man]

Interesting topic.

I do not look at my holster when I reholster, I actively scan my area at that time. It is a habit I picked up and it's stuck. I have changed little things here and there but for the most part it's unconscious and deliberate.

On or off duty, dryfire or live fire, the reholster is always the same. One thing I never do is holster a non-hot gun, in that I mean a gun that isn't cocked/able to fired/dryfired without manipulation. When I stow a gun it's always in a "cruiser safe" type setup. When I'm carrying obviously it's loaded with one in the chamber. The only difference is when I dryfire or perform maintenance the magazine is removed the protocol does not change other than that.

I never pull the trigger just to pull the trigger, like a gamer styled unload and show clear, that's burning the worst type of rep which can induce an ND in particular circumstances.

The only time I look at my holster is when I am reholstering and third attempt it becomes difficult to reholster. In that case I will actually look at what is going on, even then, I immediately look up and begin to scan around.

I refer to time spent looking at your equipment as dead time. You aren't actively discriminating threats, you arent doing anything which will keep you alive. You are just standing there looking down and away from whatever just happened. By the way if you had your gun out and burned someone down, you probably should be looking around, at the very least.

[farscott]

One other issue that I have personally encountered: Interruptions can cause a safety lapse as one's mind remembers completing a step that was, in reality, interrupted before completion. When we practice something quite a bit, we subconsciously get ready for the next operation and an interruption tricks the mind into believing the previous step has been completed.

I have learned that any interruption requires me to "restart" the process in order to insure, for example, I am not holstering a cocked SIG P226 that I would have sworn I had de-cocked before the interruption occurred.

[JustOneGun]

There is some data from the Gunsite that GJM likes to quote and some members here provided their own information. Some data suggests no difference in frequency distribution between draw vs holstering vs others, while others stated that holstering was more worrisome.

I personally don't think that it is possible to get rid of a subconscious acts when talking about something that people do frequently, regularly and repetitively. It eventually becomes inhabituated and often times subconscious. I think that most NDs are a result of disconnect between stated and agreed upon safety rules and principles vs developing a yet again inhabituated set of behaviors to support those rules.

Are you suggesting that a person during dry fire and live fire training can't make a habit of using a procedure to holster? I agree that if you do it frequently it will be unconscious. But if you do it frequently as a conscious procedure it will become a conscious procedure.

For me I use it because I slowed down my training. One dry fire example: No more draw, holster, draw, holster, draw holster. Better to do a timed draw with a side step, critique. Pause. Do a reload while the gun is out of the holster, critique that. Pause. Move at a 45 with the gun out finger on the slide. Holster using my procedure. Move up to the target and practice a retention draw, critique. Pause. Holster using procedure. Timed draw with sidestep transitioning to moving away from the target, critique. Pause. Start over going opposite direction.

My procedure is done much like dry fire safety. I say out loud, Time for dry fire. "Unload the pistol." When I'm done with dry fire it's, "Training is done. Reload the pistol and holster." So the procedure begins with, "Holster." Slowly run through the steps. After a few years of doing this it is a conscious habit. I feel no need to just cram the pistol in the holster like my police days. I broke the habit.

[spinmove_]

Interesting topic.

I do not look at my holster when I reholster, I actively scan my area at that time. It is a habit I picked up and it's stuck. I have changed little things here and there but for the most part it's unconscious and deliberate.

On or off duty, dryfire or live fire, the reholster is always the same. One thing I never do is holster a non-hot gun, in that I mean a gun that isn't cocked/able to fired/dryfired without manipulation. When I stow a gun it's always in a "cruiser safe" type setup. When I'm carrying obviously it's loaded with one in the chamber. The only difference is when I dryfire or perform maintenance the magazine is removed the protocol does not change other than that.

I never pull the trigger just to pull the trigger, like a gamer styled unload and show clear, that's burning the worst type of rep which can induce an ND in particular circumstances.

The only time I look at my holster is when I am reholstering and third attempt it becomes difficult to reholster. In that case I will actually look at what is going on, even then, I immediately look up and begin to scan around.

I refer to time spent looking at your equipment as dead time. You aren't actively discriminating threats, you arent doing anything which will keep you alive. You are just standing there looking down and away from whatever just happened. By the way if you had your gun out and burned someone down, you probably should be looking around, at the very least.

Genuinely curious question from someone who is most definitely not a professional face-shooter: If you've scanned the area "post shoot" and deemed the area "free from threats" and can now transition to a more administrative set of actions would it not be more beneficial to look while reholstering than not?


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[voodoo_man]

Genuinely curious question from someone who is most definitely not a professional face-shooter: If you've scanned the area "post shoot" and deemed the area "free from threats" and can now transition to a more administrative set of actions would it not be more beneficial to look while reholstering than not?


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Few considerations I've learned from real world experience.

I have had to quickly my firearm on several occasions working in a non-uniformed capacity because of responding uniformed officers imminent arrival. It has been shown repeatedly that arriving uniformed officers have a higher statistical percentage of shooting anyone with a firearm in their hand, even other uniformed officers. Knowing this beforehand I made it a point to quickly reholster while looking around for other threats which may present themselves and may still be developing.

This is not to say you should not save your life and the lives of others, regardless of knowing the above fact, if the threat of death and/or serious injury immediately exists. You are just creating a circumstance where arriving officers may not use verbal commands and just shoot at you.

There is a 35-45% chance the person you are using force against is not alone, it fluctuates up and down every year in the FBI LEOKA. I have experienced this first hand as you just do not know where the other guy is and if he even exists, even if you just used deadly force you should be looking around. Every police department (and any first responder's training) first starts with "make sure the scene is safe" - well this means a lot more than environmental hazards. If you think the bad guys don't know how to L-Shape and have a capacity for immediate use of force without consideration for backdrops and whatnot, you are extremely mistaken. They do not have to play by the rules, we have to at all times. With this information, simply believing you won because you downed one guy is very much a mistake, one which can end up with you shot and/or killed.

At the end of this discussion, you have to realize that reality is extremely unpredictable. Using square range "admin actions" in the real world is not only something which won't occur, but if you try to force it you will likely feel a form of cognitive dissonance because you know you shouldn't be doing it, but you are against your better judgement which ends up confusing the hell out of you. I've seen it in person when an officer needed to reload after the fact and he just stood there with his gun in hands looking at his spare mag. He didn't know what to do with the half depleted magazine, he had never trained any other way than how the range staff instructed which was to put that spare mag in his cargo pocket, except we don't wear cargo pants on duty. He figured it out but during that "dead time" he was just standing there letting the wheels work. It is best not to do this and not to train like this.