Endloop of repeated verbal commands, possibly a mental Freeze?

[Chance]

Pardon me while I belabor the point, but the reason I brought up the computer analogy is this: I have no background in psychology, (other than having been raised by a psychologist, and having done a fair amount of reading with regard to the psychological aspects of fight-flight-freeze,) but it seems to me that your subconscious responds to stimuli the same way a computer program does.

A computer program will not spontaneously come up with a solution to a problem; it has to have the correct programming in place beforehand. Your subconscious will not spontaneously come up with a solution to a problem; it has to have the right programming (e.g., training) beforehand.

If a computer is placed into a loop without a sufficient exit condition, it will necessarily stay in that loop. If your subconscious is trained to repeat a certain action (e.g., is stuck in a loop) without a sufficient “line in the sand” to do something different (e.g., an exit condition), you will necessarily repeat that action.

Sometimes being stuck in a loop is a good thing, like with BBI’s example. Many other times, it’s not. You have to program / train your subconscious on when it has to do something different. If that programming / training isn’t there, it is necessarily the case that your subconscious will revert to the programming you have available.

If you make someone afraid to take a certain action, you are making their “exit condition” ambiguous. If the exit condition is ambiguous, you may or may not exit a loop, and take a different action.

It warrants repeating, I am a layman that has no background in psychology, and I’m definitely not a cop, but I think if cops are not told explicitly, “If a suspect does this, you will do this,” is the source of the issue. I realize ambiguity is an inherent part of policing, but if the fight-flight-freeze response isn’t sufficiently programmed beforehand, you’re going to have an error.

Again: I’m a layman, keyboard commando, and I don’t mean to contradict or otherwise indict the folks that actually put their lives on the line to serve our communities. I’m just sharing my thoughts on the issue.

[Chuck Haggard]

In the cop world a LOT of people make fun of the Verbal Judo training, and IMHO they are completely and utterly full of shit. There is a lot of science and real world experience involved in what has become the Verbal Judo system, and every cop should be trained in using it adeptly.

Directly towards what we are talking about, I give you the guidelines in Verbal Judo training as to when the officer should act instead of talk;
SAFER
It is an acronym from the first letters of the following words: security, attack, flight, excessive
repetition, revised priorities.
Thompson chooses action when words have failed to achieve the objective.
The officer should take action when:
> Security: When you, or others under your control, are threatened.
> Attack: When your personal danger zone is violated.
> Flight: When the subject attempts to flee.
> Excessive repetition: When both parties are repeating themselves with no results.
> Revised Priorities: Whenever a matter of higher priority requires your immediate
attention.


Another issue brought up in this training, which I discovered years before I took it, is sometimes we have to recode and resend the message, they are not receiving it on the other end.

I recall an incident where we had more bad guys in the fight than good guys. I had just LVNR'd a armed robbery suspect to the ground who had been violently resisting (he was unarmed at that moment...). I look up and see a bad guy approaching behind one of the other officers, he had a large pipe wrench in his hand. I manage to draw strong hand only, get a muzzle on him, and yelled "drop the wrench!" two or three times in good professional 1Adam12 language. He stalls, looks at me, then looks at the other officer who was still fighting with one of the suspects. He was clearly thinking about whether he could win this fight, so I removed all doubt what happened next, "Drop the wrench or I will shoot you in the fucking head". He dropped the wrench.

I was written up for cursing as "unprofessional language", even though the Verbal Judo instructor went to bat for me on the "recode/resend" thing as being part of the training. Our deputy chief back then was an ego driven shithead with an ax to grind so I expected this sort of thing from him.

[octagon]

I agree Chuck. Verbal Judo has some great stuff that if more people, cops and citizens understood and used there would be less physical altercations and hurt feelings. I had a similar situation to your in a foot chase where I started yelling at the guy running to "STOP POLICE" a few times. I changed that to "STOP or I'll fucking shoot you" He didn't stop but turned to look at me and fell. I held him there at gunpoint until a backup officer arrived from another agency. I was well out of my jurisdiction in the inner city after a car and foot pursuit. One thing I tried and didn't like due to bad results is the VJ traffic stop script. I got more escalation and hassle when I used the script of greeting, my name is... I stopped you for ..... drivers license, registration and proof of insurance. I kept much of it and went straight to DL,Reg and Proof of Ins before stating why I stopped them. It cut resistance and escalation A LOT. If people would ask before I had their paperwork I politely said I will explain everything once I have your paperwork.

The missing Link book and video are similar to VJ but more citizen CC oriented. On two ends of the extreme are the books How to Manage Conflict by Peg Pickering for stuff farther away from a fight communication and The Little Black Book of Violence by Kane and Wilder for stuff just before and in fight communication. All have something valuable to offer.

[blues]

I look up and see a bad guy approaching behind one of the other officers, he had a large pipe wrench in his hand. I manage to draw strong hand only, get a muzzle on him, and yelled "drop the wrench!" two or three times in good professional 1Adam12 language. He stalls, looks at me, then looks at the other officer who was still fighting with one of the suspects. He was clearly thinking about whether he could win this fight, so I removed all doubt what happened next, "Drop the wrench or I will shoot you in the fucking head". He dropped the wrench.

I was written up for cursing as "unprofessional language", even though the Verbal Judo instructor went to bat for me on the "recode/resend" thing as being part of the training. Our deputy chief back then was an ego driven shithead with an ax to grind so I expected this sort of thing from him.

I've had similar experience but I don't know whether it's the communication that finally gets through or a combination of words and a light bulb moment for the offender.

In one instance we had a fixed wing or helicopter up and a number of ground units following a perp with a large load of coke or heroin on a controlled delivery.

Suddenly, somehow, everyone loses the eye on this guy but me. I'm calling for backup and the guy is clearly trying to get away. He pulls into a strip mall by Florida Int'l University, ditches the vehicle and starts to beat feet. I give chase on the ground hoping that units are on the way. I close on the guy and have a bead on him and order him to the ground, as he goes down he goes to his waistband...I yell at him to stop or I'll shoot, he hesitates and continues to the waistband and I yell at him that I'm going to blow his fucking head off as I start applying light pressure on the trigger. He quits.

When taken into custody, he has to ride with a rookie as he's soiled himself and it's not my case anyway. Back in the Joint Task Force HQ's he tells the case agent he won't talk to anyone but me. Somehow that moment has created a strange sort of bond in his mind.

Another time I'm wrestling on the floor of a Bennigan's, (like a Friday's), with a guy who had run after spotting a pin hole lens in a hotel room used for a UC sting. As I'm fighting with the guy trying to control him I'm telling him to quit and finally bang his head off the floor while telling him the next move is I'm going to shoot him. At that point he decided to give up and then ended up cooperating and telling his story back at the office.

I agree that verbal communication in the midst of physical action can make a difference but the window is pretty small. But, use whatever works has always been my thought on the matter. You can (hopefully) always escalate if need be.

[Chance]

You need to come around more, @Chuck Haggard.

[Chuck Haggard]

Octagon, I had the opposite effect, running with the script led to things being rather smooth.

I worded mine as "... I did see you run the stop sign/red light/tailgating/lane change/whatever.....", that worked for whatever reason.

[El Cid]

I wonder how much of this behavior is influenced by what LEO's see as "successes?" By that I mean, they see fellow LEO's resolve a situation without deadly force by waiting and repeating commands. I'm betting that most times the technique is used there is no bloodshed. Since nobody is hurt they view it as a success and then repeat what they've seen "work."

[BN]

The "elephant in the room" is you don't want to get thrown to the wolves. If a problem can be resolved without shooting it is seen as better. Therefore the reluctance to shoot even when it might be the best choice.

[blues]

The "elephant in the room" is you don't want to get thrown to the wolves. If a problem can be resolved without shooting it is seen as better. Therefore the reluctance to shoot even when it might be the best choice.

After the events of Baltimore, Ferguson and several other well documented locales...the prospect of being the one to engender riots, social unrest and endless press conferences and hand wringing has got to be somewhat less than appealing.

[John Hearne]

Sorry to get here late but....

My take is that the officer's mental map does not match the unfolding reality. The officer has a mental map in which clear verbal commands will gain compliance and make the need for all of that "icky" force stuff unnecessary. When the unfolding reality doesn't match up with the mental map, the officer begins to repeat his desired/preferred solution rather than moving on to something else. He can't move on to anything else because he's never built a mental map that involved a non-compliant person or real violence done by him.

William Aprill has famously said that we need a parking space in our head for the violence we might need to do. Without a parking space, the car just circles around the parking lot.....