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Thread: Tikka Scope/Ring Question

  1. #11
    I went and looked in my plastic container that has various sets of rings to see if there was anything that would possibly work. Sadly it was a No-Go. The one thing I noted was a couple of pairs of old school 1" Weaver rings that had the curved lip on the top part of the ring. The upper portion of the ring is very thin in diameter. They always seemed to be the rings that I could get a scope as low as possible to the barrel. They were never pretty, but actually did a good job.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost River View Post
    I went and looked in my plastic container that has various sets of rings to see if there was anything that would possibly work. Sadly it was a No-Go. The one thing I noted was a couple of pairs of old school 1" Weaver rings that had the curved lip on the top part of the ring. The upper portion of the ring is very thin in diameter. They always seemed to be the rings that I could get a scope as low as possible to the barrel. They were never pretty, but actually did a good job.
    Thanks.

    I have a couple of sets of those, but they're such a pain to set up properly that I've all but quit using them. And yeah, they're pretty much the lowest thing around. Too bad Weaver doesn't make something like them in 30mm.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  3. #13
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Nope. No need to torque more than once. Mark the position when you torque or whatever passes for torque :-). When you put it back on, use a regular wrench and turn to same mark. Boom. Same poi.

    Note this assumes good hardware. This works for my Badger and Spuhr rings.
    How OCD are you about leveling the reticle? Makes a difference in windage if you're working with a lot of drop at longer ranges.

    For Okie, just something to be aware of, Warne has had a redesign on its direct-mount Tikka rings. The early ones had a silver pin to engage the recoil slot. Later ones have what appears to be a more complex black MIM part, which I have assumed must be a significant improvement. So you'll want to make sure you get the later version if you go that route. The part number didn't change, and Cabela's (for example) uses stock photos showing either version for different ring specs on its site. Make sure you can inspect the parts before purchase or return them until you get the later rev.
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  4. #14
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    How OCD are you about leveling the reticle? Makes a difference in windage if you're working with a lot of drop at longer ranges.
    For my long range tactical guns I need to be pretty OCD about everything. But that's on the initial mount, torque, and zero. Once that's done, the scope can be unmounted and remounted with less than 0.1 mil change by returning the bolts to the same marks.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  5. #15
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Wait--are you wanting to take the scope out of the rings? If so, don't do that.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  6. #16
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Yeah, as Okie mentioned, the Talleys that are so popular with Tikka guys can't be removed from the receiver without removing the scope from the rings first. Makes them a non-starter for me.

    Non-QR Warnes fall into the same category, as the same bolts that clamp the bottom of the rings to the dovetail provide clamping force on the scope itself.

    I suspect a close to optimal Tikka solution would be the new-and-improved recoil pin-having Warne QRs with the QR hardware replaced by suitable screws (and probably washers), so you eliminate the risk of breakage and/or inadvertent loosening. Haven't bought any hardware yet, though.
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  7. #17
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Tikka Scope/Ring Question

    Ugh. That makes things more difficult.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 05-01-2017 at 06:00 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  8. #18
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Warne Tikka T3 / T3X QD 1TL / 1TLM Scope Rings / Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Warne has also upgraded their Tikka rings.

    http://warnescopemounts.com/product-...y/rings/tikka/

    They used to just have a stainless steel pin to go in the receiver slot, which ended up being close to the rear of the rings. Now, it appears to be a more complex MIM part that will engage some other feature of the rings. Or maybe it just resists tipping under the shear forces. I haven't gotten my hands on the new design parts, but I'm considering doing so. Be careful. If you google the part number, you find retailers using stock photos of both the old and new design, so I'm not sure whether they changed the part number or not. An online order could pull old stock from some dusty warehouse shelf.
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I suspect a close to optimal Tikka solution would be the new-and-improved recoil pin-having Warne QDs with the QD hardware replaced by suitable screws (and probably washers), so you eliminate the risk of breakage and/or inadvertent loosening. Haven't bought any hardware yet, though.
    Finally made some progress on this. Decided the photos of the new design have been around long enough to give pretty good odds of getting the good stuff from an online order, and hit the search button. Found a couple sets of the QD rings at a poorly-focused mega-retailer with what appeared to be a pricing error: the QD rings were at the price you’d expect to see the permanent-mount rings. Bought both sets they had, with free shipping. At my door two days later.

    http://warnescopemounts.com/product/...m-matte-rings/

    First of all, the recoil dog. I believe this is the first photo posted to the internet showing what the insert actually looks like. It’s fully captured by both screws.

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    Unlike a pin, which would have to be clamped firmly between the halves and in any case would tend to lever itself out of the ring body under recoil, it floats loosely in the cavity, even when the screws are tight. This means it can’t interfere with the seating of the two halves against each other or how they hold the scope tube. The long base of this dog reacts the rotation against the receiver itself, keeping the pin in shear. It’s also reversible, so you can decide which side of the rifle you want the QD levers (or replacement screws, if you follow along) to be on. Note that the recoil dog has only to contend with the force left over after the main clamping of the dovetail slips – the friction force of the clamp surfaces is subtracted from the total force before the dog sees it. It’s a good design.

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    The factory rings have a recoil pin, but that pin has been known to break the aluminum body of the ring base, cracking the metal and beginning to pull through the end. Not likely to happen on a .223, but I don’t feel a need to run the experiment on .308-based cartridges or larger. The screws holding the top straps on the factory rings are only grade 8.8; lots of people go to a hardware store and replace them with grade 12.9 to avoid problems. Since they are going into extruded aluminum, it’s likely that the meaningful difference is the fullness of the thread form (class of fit) rather than the strength of the material.

    Sako Optilock rings would be pretty sweet, using inserts similar to the Burris Signature Zee system, but even their extra-low version, which I’ve never seen for sale in the US, puts the scope higher than other options. It’s like they’re designed for 50mm and larger Hubble objectives. And they’re crazy expensive.

    Unlike the Talley, DNZ and non-QD Warne mounts, the Warne QD mounts can be removed from the receiver without disturbing the union of the rings to the scope tube. The direct dovetail mounting provides inherent return-to-zero properties as good as anything can. (Warne states “Return to Zero Guaranteed, quickly detach and reattach the Tikka QD rings with no loss of zero.”) This means you can remove the scope for service, transportation, etc., without having to relevel it. You can have a pre-zeroed backup scope, or just multiple scopes for different environments to be hunted with the same rifle.

    Unfortunately, the QD levers are a risk. They can snag on clothing, gear or vegetation. They can get broken. They theoretically could be loosened just enough to affect zero, without being noticed until after a very expensive missed shot.

    Fortunately, as I speculated in the prior posts, I’ve found it’s easy to ditch them. The QD levers capture nuts that run up and down screws, which are retained in the mount by the combination of being jammed against the lead of the threads and red thread locker. Just crank them lefty-loosy until they come out. I used the levers to turn them; one of them stripped the nut, but the included Torx tool got it the rest of the way. Then just replace the QD screws and levers with quality hardware.

    The threads are 10-32. I chased the thread locker out of the holes with this bottoming tap from Amazon, which was $3.77 and an add-on Prime item when I ordered it.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PZZG5QS

    The key detail there is the H2 thread fit, as I wanted to avoid removing any extra material from the threads. Probably won’t make a significant difference to use the much more common H3, but I’m OCD about mechanical things, in case that’s not obvious.

    On the rings with the recoil dog, the hole is a thru-hole. On the rings without the dog, it’s blind.

    I’ve been happy with the quality of the hardware Fastenal sells. Used these:

    https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/93164
    #10-32 x 1/2" ASTM A574 Hex Drive Zinc Finish Alloy Steel Socket Cap Screw
    Fastenal Part No. (SKU): 93164

    I went with zinc plated for corrosion resistance. Black oxide is not really an anti-corrosion coating; it just holds enough oil to keep the screws from rusting before you can buy them. The screws I received were marked YFS, which is a reputable, non-Communist manufacturer of socket screws.

    http://www.yfs.com.tw/yfs_en/about.a...l=about1-1.htm

    These screws are ASTM A574. Fastenal’s documentation states:
    https://www.fastenal.com/content/doc...renceGuide.pdf
    ASTM A574 Socket Head Cap Screw
    Tensile Strength: 180,000 PSI minimum (through ½”), 170,000 PSI minimum (above ½”)
    Proof Strength: 140,000 PSI (through ½”), 135,000 PSI (above ½”)
    Yield Strength: 153,000 PSI minimum
    Hardness: HRC 39-45 (through ½”), HRC 37-45 (above ½”)
    That’s likely a significant upgrade versus the QD screws provided by Warne. I’m confident that lots of other bad things will happen before these screws are compromised.

    Other screws might look a little nicer (stainless, or prettier head forms), but they are often only about 62,000 psi, or roughly 1/3 the strength of these. For example, button head cap screws look a little tidier, but I couldn’t find them plated in a good grade of steel, and the hex cavity is smaller, making torqueing less secure. I tried 3/8” screws, too, but they engaged barely more than one thread. I ended up having to slightly shorten the 1/2" screws to about 0.435” and slightly bevel the lead to avoid them bottoming out in the blind holes of the rings without the recoil dog, but that’s no big deal. Ended up with right around four threads of engagement, so keep Torqo the Clown away from this stuff. I recommend a torque screwdriver and use one from Wiha.

    https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0149238
    #8 x 0.438" OD Thru-Hardened Yellow Zinc Finish Steel SAE General Purpose Flat Washer
    Fastenal Part No. (SKU): 0149238

    The #8 washers are thru-hardened, so the small diameter heads of the SHCS will not swage into them when torqued. They bridge over the hole through the clamp plate (oversized to allow it to float and find the optimized clamping position), and fit perfectly in the cutout molded into the main ring body for clearance of the QD lever. The ID (“donut hole”) is the same 0.188” as the #10 screw major diameter, so they are nicely centered when tightened, rather than “orbiting” the screw. This does require an additional step of applying a small chamfer to one side of the ID hole in order to clear the radius transition from the shank to the head of the screw.

    Warne recommends 25 in/lb. of torque for all screws, although the 10-32 may be able to take a little more.

    Ditching the QD levers saves about 5 1/2 grams per mount, dropping from 85 +/- to 80 +/- grams each.

    Finally, appearance. Birchwood Casey cold blue will turn clear zinc screws black, but it’s an acid, so I assume that’s blowing away the passivation of the plating, significantly decreasing the corrosion resistance. Spray paint could work, too. (I’ve done zinc-rich primer and semi-gloss Rustoleum on a lot of black oxide screws over the years.) I’ll probably just be leaving these as-is, for maximum durability.

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    The Warne QD rings also put the scope reasonably low on the receiver. I mocked these up with a Leupold 3.5-10x40 VX-3 and the beefier EuroOptic Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40, and both had plenty of clearance to the barrel and bolt handle.

    Some alternative options with removable characteristics:

    OE Tikka rings
    height = 0.477”

    Sako Optilock
    height, extra low = 0.622”
    height, low = 0.701”

    Burris Tikka Picatinny rail mounts (with no recoil pin), plus Burris Zee rings, low
    height = 0.421”
    (I’ve used Zee low rings without Signature inserts just to get a scope as low as possible, and prefer to lap them.)

    Burris Tikka Picatinny rail mounts (with no recoil pin), plus Burris Signature Zee rings, medium
    height = 0.568”

    Burris Tikka mounts with recoil pin, medium
    height = 0.540”

    Warne Tikka 1TLM Quick Detach rings, medium
    height = 0.460”

    Summary
    I think this is the best currently-available scope mounting system for Tikka rifles. The improved recoil dog is a good design. The mounts clamp directly to the receiver dovetail, giving excellent strength. You’re not depending on little screws of unknown material characteristics to react all the shear of recoil or lateral knocks from rough handling. The direct mounting allows them to put the scope nice and low, because you’re not stacking mounts on top of rail adapters. Unlike the Talley, DNZ and non-QD Warne mounts, the Warne QD mounts can be removed from the receiver and maintain return-to-zero. Replacing the levers with bolts preserves the advantages provided by the “D” part of “QD,” without the disadvantages and risks embodied in the “Q” part.
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  9. #19
    Great post. Any pics of these rings on the rifle?

    thanks,


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  10. #20
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    I have a pretty involved leveling procedure and haven't had time to do that yet. I didn't get the eye relief and leveling dialed in when I mocked it up quick and dirty to check clearances. It was visibly off, so I didn't take any pics. Didn't want to put something that isn't right out on the internet for posterity.

    Warne has some nice pics on their site, and there are plenty on Google, just with different hardware.
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