I did that with my P30, although it was a Grayguns one, and I am not that talented or hard-working. Josh made an A class with P30. It is completely doable.Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins
I did that with my P30, although it was a Grayguns one, and I am not that talented or hard-working. Josh made an A class with P30. It is completely doable.
Last edited by YVK; 05-02-2017 at 08:09 AM.
I get what you are referring to but that is weird way to say it. I want all my triggers designed for shooting. Safety rules,gun handling and techniques are what I use for not shooting.
This....
I fear we sometimes fool ourselves with the equipment issue on safety. I totally believe that when our procedures break down it really isn't that certain trigger that saved us, it's luck.
I think it was ToddG who talked about that we would all have bullet holes in us if every time we holstered without thinking the gun went off.
Last edited by JustOneGun; 05-02-2017 at 09:07 AM.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
Sig Sauer P250c (w/ small grip frame)
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
I think you gentlemen are reading something in to what I said that wasn't there. Obviously one should not rely on hardware solutions for software issues like proper safety procedures. That said, supplementing correct software programming with hardware optimized for a particular purpose can sometimes be beneficial. I don't do what you gentlemen do, and have so far never felt the need to aim a pistol at anyone. DB did for many years, and has said many times that the LEM is one of, if not the best, triggers for managing people at gunpoint (i.e. not shooting them), and returning to its "decocked" state when coming off target simply by returning the trigger finger to register. I tend to agree with his assessment, but since I don't have a personal need for those features, I don't have much use for the trigger.
TY83544
Rich, the guns you currently have are an ideal combination for carry and gaming. What is standing between you and your goal is not hardware, it is software. You need to receive as much high level instruction as you can, dry fire, live fire and shoot matches. You are already a GM on the intellectual part of the equation, now you need to master the physical part.
You have mentioned several times that your goal is B class in USPSA. Do you literally mean achieve a B class card, and if so, have you diagramed a path to accomplish that?
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
I'm really late to the party here and haven't read every post, but I find the B class goal confusing. Why not try to become the best shooter you possibly can and let the classification fall where it may? If you get your B card will you be done with USPSA at that point, or have you told yourself that you don't think it's reasonable to reach beyond that?
If you want the best possible results in USPSA you'll have easier tools to work with using the VP9 in production. If you want to reach the highest levels of performance that you can with your carry gun, shoot the p30sk in whatever division you can with your every day holster. I think both are great paths that will benefit anyone, whichever you want to walk is up to you.
I think the answer here no matter what is to order a couple cases of ammo and go shooting.
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I think you got caught up in the general idea of this thread. I don't think we meant to imply what you think.
But the LEM/TDA argument is 100% wrong for many reasons:
I will through training, even as a moderately trained person, maximize my ability to shoot that trigger. As someone said earlier in this thread, "I can be more aggressive on the trigger" That gun can go bang at the same time as the Glock at the end of the presentation. Not only can it, but to save my life, I train to do that. So what extra time am I going to have when it comes to stopping. I have now calibrated myself to my trigger. So the differences can be significant during a transition period. But very quickly even poor shooters get that calibration. Riding the trigger and other problems being constant didn't change the events (Still a problem to be fixed).
If you spend years in a shoot house and FoF one thing you will be able to say is that there is a genetic component to each of these abilities. No great info there, but the amazing part for me was just how large the range of ability is. Example: I've seen officers who should not even have a gun because they are so unsafe, stop that trigger press unbelievably fast. I saw it, couldn't believe it and watched it again on video. I came away with one thought, "I can't do that" and here's this Hot Mess of an officer that can do it over and over again to save themselves from bad shoots. On the other end of the genetic spectrum I've heard instead of the standard, bang followed by, "Shit" when an officer screws up, I have heard and seen officers who were talented SWAT/high end shooting officers say "Shit" and then I see the pistol wobble and bang. Genetically they could not stop pulling the trigger yet had time to verbally say, "Shit". I've seen both these things to the same degree with Glocks and DA's. Understanding this, how many of the folks on this board know where they stand on the genetic scorecard? That's pretty hard to know for all of us. But it's there.
Then of course there is the what happens shot to shot. This is seen far more on the TDA/DAO than on the LEM or a light DA. Watching people's reactions to their screw ups is interesting. It's my opinion that people shooting that first shot and having a range of difficulty when compared to the single action leads to some level of panic. They believe they are behind the curve and many trying to, "Catch up" just make it worse. When we switched these folks to the Glock there was a drastic improvement. There were still screw ups, but the amount that occurred right after the first shot went way down.
And as I mentioned earlier the difference between LEO and Civilian on the legality of pointing a gun at someone is extreme. Add in how County Attorney's and the courts treat using a higher level of force for police and civilian defense very differently (even though they are the same written law) it is even more extreme. If a civilian is holding someone at gunpoint they really should rethink why. Therefore the time for me as a civilian to decide to not shoot should end as my pistol comes up on target and I look at my target (not the bad guy's weapon, etc.). I agree with DB here. LEO's point their guns at people far too much. There is a cost free way of holding someone at gunpoint that doesn't require us to point the gun at them.
Last edited by JustOneGun; 05-02-2017 at 12:24 PM.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
Lots of words here, but this is something that popped out. Anytime someone says their argument is 100 percent right or the other guy's argument is 100 percent wrong, I would bet opposite.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
That's fair enough. I wonder if you had any ideas on the words?
Because if you don't read the words how will you or a person assign a percentage for yourself? The reality of what you said can also be interpreted using the same logic process you used on me. Would I be correct if I said you just didn't want to read the words because your emotionally attached to your argument? Would I be correct if I suggested you were just being mentally lazy? I would be guessing that I was right with those things. That's the logic of an argument. Not a discussion.
As for the substance of your argument, the being fearful of 100% is a truism. But as the child author Terry Brooks says, "Truisms are the useless children of hindsight." Yeah we try not to throw that out there. But since I wrote, "a lot of words" to support that number, that number seems to hang you up. Would I be correct or wrong with, "Almost always" or "99.9%" At some point you gotta read it before you pass it. Not the other way around. Anything else is using semantics to avoid a discussion. Which is fine too. We're all grown up here.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
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