Home Defense : Hollow Point vs FMJ *HANDGUNS ONLY*

[BehindBlueI's]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

Your friend is full of shit.

[Malamute]

It's a completely different round.

Could you clarify that? I'm not sure what the difference is, and haven't heard there was a difference in the context of the general conversation as regards semi-auto pistol ammo.

[Default.mp3]

I thought he was saying that ballistics gel does not do a good enough job. The thickness of the person and bones add in factors that decreased HP penetrating power.

Ballistics gel is used as a repeatable medium, and does not match to human issue penetration 1:1. Beyond that, mass of the person decreases the penetrating power of all rounds, and bones would deflect the best of barrier-blind duty handgun ammo.

Not sure what the distinction is you are making between a hollow point (HP) and a jacketed hollow point (JHP)? Could you help clarify please?

It's a completely different round.

While there certainly are non-jacketed hollow point bullets out there, their use in factory duty ammo is essentially non-existent, especially when ignoring revolver calibers.

[KhanRad]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

Somehow we federals are given more credit than we disserve. From my personal car shoot experiences, round nosed FMJ bullets tend to deflect quite a bit. My opinion is that he rounded projectile has more of a tendency to rapidly initiate a deflection rather than the sharp leading edge of a JHP. Now, if your Agent friend is using flat point .40S&W or .357sig, then yes I can see a "possible" benefit to using the FMJ as it will retain the same leading edge as a JHP, and be more durable with a solid projectile.

That being said, I have seen no measurable benefit to using any form of FMJ in car shoots. We have shot up usually two cars every few years and we have brought in about a half dozen windshields to lay over the car for additional shots once the previous windshield is shattered beyond usefulness.

[Thepig]

Somehow we federals are given more credit than we disserve. From my personal car shoot experiences, round nosed FMJ bullets tend to deflect quite a bit. My opinion is that he rounded projectile has more of a tendency to rapidly initiate a deflection rather than the sharp leading edge of a JHP. Now, if your Agent friend is using flat point .40S&W or .357sig, then yes I can see a "possible" benefit to using the FMJ as it will retain the same leading edge as a JHP, and be more durable with a solid projectile.

That being said, I have seen no measurable benefit to using any form of FMJ in car shoots. We have shot up usually two cars every few years and we have brought in about a half dozen windshields to lay over the car for additional shots once the previous windshield is shattered beyond usefulness.

Wouldn't the angle of shot have a lot to do with how it deflects more than ammo type?

[Default.mp3]

Wouldn't the angle of shot have a lot to do with how it deflects more than ammo type?

Both will affect the amount of deflection. Thus, shooting out of a Jeep with it's very flat windshield with minimal rake will have less deflection than a shooting out of a Ferrari 458, all things being equal.

Really, it's my understanding that one should simply shoot a hole out in the windshield, then shoot through said hole, rather than constantly worrying about deflection. After all, the deflection can be very large; IIRC, shooting out a Volvo sedan, using 115 gr. FMJ, with a target about 4 yards in front of the car, when aiming at the pelvic girdle, the bullets were impacting in the head.

[KhanRad]

Wouldn't the angle of shot have a lot to do with how it deflects more than ammo type?

If your angle is consistently the same, then there must be other factors as play. When firing from the same bench rest position, this is that we noticed. Dr. Roberts has mentioned that he has observed similar results in his testing.

One thing that I have noticed is that smaller calibers tend to show less deflection too(9mm vs .40 vs .45). Maybe due to the fast that the smaller projectile has less "barrier" to defeat before passing through? Bonded 5.56 has virtually no point of aim deflection.

[Malamute]

While there certainly are non-jacketed hollow point bullets out there, their use in factory duty ammo is essentially non-existent, especially when ignoring revolver calibers.

That's my understanding. I was curious why PIG was making such a distinction in the context of the discussion, and exactly what he thought the difference was. I believe most people use the terms interchangeably, particularly when discussing something specific like automatic pistol loads.

[Totem Polar]

Both will affect the amount of deflection. Thus, shooting out of a Jeep with it's very flat windshield with minimal rake will have less deflection than a shooting out of a Ferrari 458, all things being equal.

Really, it's my understanding that one should simply shoot a hole out in the windshield, then shoot through said hole, rather than constantly worrying about deflection...

Not that I'm any expert, especially with guys like Doc upthread, but this is my understanding as well—and the guys (note plural) that have told me the same thing would know. At any rate, I've had the opportunity to punch that first, fresh hole though a windshield from inside (against targets, not tangos) and it's a moot point very quickly if you're hitting the trigger on something like a G17 at speed. You're shooting through a port almost instantly.

[Joe in PNG]

Now, I have heard the advise to use FMJ over JHP when it comes to the classic "mouse gun" calibers such as the .25acp, .32acp, and .380acp. In those cases, the expanding bullets don't penetrate, and the penetrating bullets don't do a lot of damage.

The other recommendation is to use wadcutters in snub 38's, as the short barrel may not give enough velocity for the typical JHP to expand reliably.

Otherwise, best to use good JHP off the list.