Home Defense : Hollow Point vs FMJ *HANDGUNS ONLY*

[blues]

A new person joins conversation with people they don't know. His introduction is "Hi! I'm an awesome shooter and here's what I know!" This doesn't get the result he's after, so he chimes in with "This is why EVERYTHING you THINK you know about terminal ballistics is wrong." Problem is, the group he walked into has cops with real experience shooting people, USPSA GM/M class shooters, and one of the foremost nationally recognized authorities on terminal ballistics. This kind of attitude can only happen on line, because if someone walked up to a group like this anywhere else they would see the strange looks and eyes rolling with every response. Or worse.

I am not a USPSA GM, or a recognized authority in wound ballistics, but I'm smart enough to listen to those that have done the work and learn from them. It's not wrong to question with an open mind. Coming in hot with all your own opinions about how every one else is wrong generally isn't the way to go. Just my thoughts.

This comes to mind...

[SSGN_Doc]

Wow. I don't suppose it is possible to unread some of this.

It seems that Thepig took information to extremes, and has failed to heed the advice of actually reading the source material that everyone has directed him to. The lecturer in the video cites some of the very source material that he is being referred to.

I don't know that even Dr. Roberts has stated that modern bonded jacket hollow point rounds would fully eliminate over penetration, but part of their design is to mitigate or reduce the likelihood of over penetration. The body of Dr. Robert's work indicates that adequate penetration is a primary feature that is desired out of a duty or defensive load. Rapid blood loss is a more reliable and reproducable physiologic factor in rapid incapacitation, and expansion along with penetration are used in conjunction to make this rapid blood loss more likely.
The data reaches back decades. standards have been set based on case studies as well a correlation to ballistic gel performance to create a repeatable method of quantifying what makes a god defensive or duty load. Thepig seems to have missed this fact tat police and agencies are not picking their rounds based on gel tests without field data that relates to what is to be expected in gel tests.

Having seen people who have been shot with handguns using FMJ and non expanding lead rounds I can say that the wounds are actually pretty unimpressive. Flesh gets pushed out of the way and practically shuts itself and reduces blood loss. Fragmenting high velocity rifle rounds and expanding bullets do more rapid and permanent damage resulting in more rapid blood loss and rapid incapacitation. Those are the facts I've seen demonstrated. I have also seen FMJ rounds from 9mm and .45 ACP pistols penetrate completely and I have seen them stop in approximately 8-10 inches. (One .45 ACP round was fired from approximately 1-2 feet according to witness accounts. Penetrated one buttock and stopped in the adjacent buttock. Gun grab on a guard from a prisoner who cleared the holster moved laterally and fired the shot with his hands behind his back, putting the round diagonally through the guards buttocks. Not much bleeding, but a lot of swearing in Haitian Creole, as this was on a deployment to that lovely side of that island I would rather forget.) I'm thinking Haitian LE may not get great weapon retention training.

I may only be wasting some breath, (or the digital internet forum equivalent, in type), trying to summarize some of the points I think the OP just glossed over but, since I read his posts and can't unread them I felt compelled to write my take, if only to vent.

I may have missed some points which Dr. Roberts has taken the time and effort to share with the firearms community as a whole, in my efforts to summarize, and I apologize if I missed any major point of context, as that was not my intent. I enjoy this forum for it's more mature method of addressing issues. In the title of this forum it states it is for teachers and students of the pistol. After over 30 years of some experience with firearms, on this forum I still place myself in the student category.

[Joe in PNG]

Derp is a lot like tar stains, but on the mind.
Easy to get on, hard as heck to remove. It always amazes me how people will defend to the death something they once heard from sum dood at the gunshop, or read on teh internets.

[Totem Polar]

I do however think you guys should stop using the meme of piecing bodies for any of the reasons you use them. You can even take it one step further.

[Robinson]

Coming in hot with all your own opinions about how every one else is wrong generally isn't the way to go. Just my thoughts.

Yeah that pretty much nails it. Plus it happened in the Ammunition section of the forum, which is really just a wonderful place to learn good things.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've seen the theory before that one should use FMJs with handguns because penetration trumps every other consideration.

This logic holds true, for .32acp pistols.......

Service caliber handgun firing standard FMJ ammo can penetrate 2 or 3 people in a row. I've seen gel shots of loads like 147gr 9mm or 180gr .40 FMJFP get like 46" into gel blocks. Quality service pistol JHPs such as what Doc recommends typically still penetrate all the way through the person shot when the hits are torso only and not at a funky angle. Our 124gr +P Gold Dots consistently exited the bad guys we shot, but they did not present a downrange danger to anyone else as they were quickly spent past that point.

Not sure why one would need MORE than "consistently all the way through" levels of penetration.

[Balisong]

you know I've always felt that 9mm vs .45 was a question just begging to be answered by a 105 page thread about nothing.

I'm new here so I'm gonna assume it's never been asked and start a brand new thread about it....

[JustOneGun]

I'm new here so I'm gonna assume it's never been asked and start a brand new thread about it....

Hey if you're new and just need something to read there is always the AIWB sticky...

[critter]

Definitely an interesting thread. But I'm severely disappointed in this wasted box of tampons I've been carrying around... Man, I though I had that bleeding bullet hole thing covered on the cheap.

[blues]

Definitely an interesting thread. But I'm severely disappointed in this wasted box of tampons I've been carrying around... Man, I though I had that bleeding bullet hole thing covered on the cheap.

Don't forget the cellophane from cigarette packs. Oh wait, you said inexpensive.