Hammer fired guns in a Striker fired world

[AMC]

Our department made the decision to transition to a semiautomatic, and become a 'one gun' department, after a horrendous gunbattle in which one officer (carrying a revolver) was killed by a rifle armed nutjob who then engaged the rest of the on-duty department in an 1100 round gunbattle. The accepted solution to a rifle armed bad guy became.... everyone must carry the same handgun to share magazines. Reason has since then failed to penetrate our training program, even though we now have patrol rifles. I do deeply regret not buying my old issued Model 28 when they offered them, though (only $150!). That beast was accurate.....and would make an excellent close quarters impact weapon when you ran dry.....

[dogcaller]

You would be surprised what kids can do. My son who is 8 months old can grip the shit out of stuff and his little fingers can fit into anything. If we are talking what might be the "safest" gun if u mess up arounds kids would be a 1911. Stout manual thumb safety that they would have to figure out plus depressing a grip safety. Just saying

Not trying to be contrary, but I do think the P7 is about the “safest” regarding children and fools. That being said, I don’t leave pistols lying around, P7, or otherwise.

[Jeep]

I’m not necessarily looking to change anyone’s mind, and certainly not looking for a “fight”, but I think it’s probably a bad idea to start thinking one gun is safer around children (or fools) than another gun — no matter the technical details of how they work or the validity of the arguments.

There obviously are precautions necessary in a house with children (or fools) that aren’t in one without, I just don’t think the details of how the gun accomplishes the act of firing a round are particularly relevant. I do think everyone should do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of their family (and fools), even if it means disagreeing with me. [emoji4]

Tom: Let me mildly disagree with you. I agree with your underlying point that small kids and loaded guns is a bad combination no matter how "safe" the gun is. Thus, they should all be kept where the kids absolutely can't get them (and most should normally be unloaded).

But, I do think kids will have a more difficult time firing a Beretta 92FS (with its safety and DA initial pull) than, say, a SIG 229 (no safety but tough first pull), which will in turn be harder to fire than a Glock/M&P/320 etc. A 1911, with both thumb and grip safety, might be harder than all the others, particularly with small hands.

And, while it is always a very bad idea to leave any loaded firearm where a kid might get at it, the ones with more safety features give you a bit of extra protection and that might come in handy if negligence happens and the firearm is left where a kid might get it.

That bit of extra protection, of course, will do you no good if it encourages one to be even a bit more inattentive, but sometimes a bit more protection can be the difference between tragic situation narrowly averted and life-as-you-know-it-ending tragedy.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I understand the points made. I see an analogy to having a car with airbags vs. without - so if your kid takes the car for a joy ride, they will have a little more safety features. I think we all respond to the folks who think that the gun characteristics by themselves mean that the gun is safe to leave around kids. That's different from hoping some mechanical device helps mitigate the results of accidental or stupidly allowing access.

My mother let me have free access to her nail file - which as a little boy I promptly stuck into the electric socket. When our daughter was little, we bought those plastic plugs to fill sockets not in use.

[Jeep]

My mother let me have free access to her nail file - which as a little boy I promptly stuck into the electric socket. When our daughter was little, we bought those plastic plugs to fill sockets not in use.

Yep. Those worked with my daughter. My son? Not so much. Little (and not-so-little) boys seem to have an inner need to try to kill themselves!

[Terry]

I'm a strong believer in hammer fired pistols with a long DA, but not necessarily heavy, trigger pull. They are inherently more forgiving when handling the gun(everyone makes mistakes). My guess is the single action is probably better than mosts striker fired guns, which is what you want when you're at that point. It just makes sense to me...

[Qaz98]

I'm a strong believer in hammer fired pistols with a long DA, but not necessarily heavy, trigger pull. They are inherently more forgiving when handling the gun(everyone makes mistakes). My guess is the single action is probably better than mosts striker fired guns, which is what you want when you're at that point. It just makes sense to me...

Agreed. I think EL mentioned that everyone fingers the trigger, regardless of how much training they have. I've noticed that I have to make a very conscious decision to not run with the finger in the trigger guard, which is actually quite awkward.

I do hate the long pull on some DA/SA. I have a P30SK V3 - and that first pull is so heavy, over 12 pounds. I'm just not a fan of the V1. I think EL also wishing that manufacturer's spent time on improving DA/SA triggers. If you could make the first pull feel like the PX4CC Mod4 - or like a nice revolver like the K6S or new Colt Cobra, that would be amazing, and really set standard I think for DA/SA.

It is a training issue, and anything is possible, so the question is what is more probable. My wife doesn't shoot a lot. So do I make the house gun we have access to a DA/SA, with concern that she won't know to decock after firing, or how to handle a DA pull. And measure that against a Striker, like the G19 we currently have - with concerns that she may finger the trigger in a stressful situation, resulting in a ND? The easy answer is to train her up more, but that's easier said than done.

My dream EDC, would be a VP9/P30 grip, with a PX4CC Mod4 DA/SA trigger, in the size of a G26. Unless there's something out there like that I'm not aware of - I know I can mod my triggers via GrayGuns or DYI, but I've tried to keep everything stock.

[M2CattleCo]

A hammer fired pistol just can't get as low as a Glock because the relation of the firing pin and the hammer pin. The bore axis necesariamente higher on a hammer gun because the backstrap can't be much higher than the hammer pin. A longer hammer arc makes for better ignition.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

Both Langdon and Pannone articulate why they prefer DA/SA triggers for defensive purposes. The long DA pull is a better people management trigger if you point guns at people a lot (Police/LE). Gives you an extra safety margin if your finger happens to be on the trigger and the increased trigger travel length allows you to come off the trigger quickly if the situation changes and you decide not to shoot. In Darryl Bolke's recent interview (Mindset section), he states that he's seen several officers with their guns on half cock from coming off the trigger when the altercation changed. The short travel of a striker fired gun is far less condusive to finger checking and the length is not near as forgiving to changing your mind mid-trigger press.

I don't think competition plays a big role in the argument of TDA vs striker guns. Many people shoot both at an extremely high level. It just all boils down to individual preferences. I wouldn't ever say someone is "wrong" for choosing a specific weapon type. I just want them to be able to articulate "why" they choose it over other options. Hence why I started this thread.

There are people that like to drive a car that is fully automatic, heating and air condition will just click on, etc. There are also car lovers who like a clutch and 5 speed stick shift. While one seems easier, there is not only less driving "feel" and feel of the engine with a fully automatic transmission, but less control. With a manual transmission, you can hold this gear or that to stay in the rev range for the power or mileage you want.

Similarly, a well tuned TDA gives more driving "feel" and choices of performance under the driver's control. If your first shot needs tiny precision, cock the hammer. Things getting tense mid fight? Decock the hammer. Things getting hairy and losing balance? Put your finger behind the trigger (when the hammer is down) and have a grip that can't lose the pistol and no chance of accidental or negligent discharge. So many options!

You also can't argue with double strike capability!

[M2CattleCo]

I don't really like the car analogy. Modern vehicles with electronic throttle don't have the feel of a mechanical linkage and just don't drive right with a manual.

And without a Jake brake and/or a brake saver driveline brake, you really don't have any control of the driveline, it's just noise.