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Thread: The efficacy of .22 in a self defense role

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post



    I don't care if the villain dies, runs away, rushes to the hospital, or goes home and pushes a wirebrush soaked in Listerine through the hole in the back of his mouth. As long as he receives the message to leave me and mine alone, that's good enough. I don't care about putting the bracelets on him, that's a job for the PoPo, not me. In fact, I prefer that he die outside my home, rather than in it, because I don't want to have to clean up his loathsome blood-borne pathogens from my house.

    Even when I am sitting around in my underwear, any home invader is going to end up leaking because the 317 is on me. Also, it has 60% more ammo in it than a .38, which should be a consideration for the capacity obsessed.

    Rant mode off.
    So, while I can't agree with most of what you wrote, it is interesting. A few quick issues, if you don't mind.

    Did you link to a tv show? What does that illustrate?

    Do you really clip your gun to your underwear? Your underwear must be pretty beefy.

    Capacity is a good thing, though no one will call me capacity obsessed. I personally would rather have 5 rounds of .38 than 8 (possible) rounds of .22

    Failures of .22 in civilian hands is not something I can quote off the top of my head. I will say that I've seen people get shot with .22's out of a rifle, and dealt with others who had been shot with .22's out of a pistol, and none of them were particularly inconvenienced by the hits. Months later, one had long term hip problems that make her limp a bit, but not much at the time.

    As far as Walt and John's quotes, that's great for dabblers (in the context of your post. I doubt it/they were meant it to encourage people to carry .22's) For those of us who spend more time training than on the internet, we can have caliber and competence. On the other hand, if John is talking about 9mm vs. .45,(which I suspect, knowing John) I might be able to get on board with that, since an awful lot of noobs think they can buy competence in the form of a .45 1911.

    A complete aside, what kind of accuracy do you get out of your gun/ammo at 25 yards? I'm still looking for a good pocket field gun in .22.
    Last edited by SLG; 12-18-2011 at 11:09 AM. Reason: clarity

  2. #12
    Certainly, if a .22 is all you have you must make the best of it.

    But how many police departments, instititutions tasked with dealing with armed violent criminals, issue or authorize firearms in .22 long rifle for general use?

    I've met both Walt and John and both carry around substantial handguns--I believe John is packing a .357 Sig these days.
    Last edited by Ed L; 12-18-2011 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #13
    HH,

    Another question, if you don't mind, since I'm now obsessed with the idea of carrying an 8 shot .22.

    Even if you believe that the .22 is a good round, why not carry a 442/642? Is the .38 worse than the .22? I love snub revolvers, and have more than a few. I've even carried them extensively in years past. You'll get no argument from me about the benefits of a 2".38. But, unless you are capacity obsessed, why not go with the 5 shot .38? 1# loaded is not much more than your 351.

  4. #14
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLG View Post
    HH,

    Another question, if you don't mind, since I'm now obsessed with the idea of carrying an 8 shot .22.

    Even if you believe that the .22 is a good round, why not carry a 442/642? Is the .38 worse than the .22? I love snub revolvers, and have more than a few. I've even carried them extensively in years past. You'll get no argument from me about the benefits of a 2".38. But, unless you are capacity obsessed, why not go with the 5 shot .38? 1# loaded is not much more than your 351.
    I don't want to drag this off-topic, but figured I'd add in an option based on compromise.

    Personally, I'd go in between. 6 shots of .32 H&R or .327 Federal isn't shabby for a j-frame sized revolver. .32 H&R gets about 13" in BG, and .327 Federal about 15" in BG. Both with a little expansion to around .40" or so, and less recoil than a .38 (significantly less with a .32 H&R).

    Want something really weak/quiet for shooting critters in the garden instead of two-legged varmints? Load the same gun with .32 S&W, short or longs.
    Last edited by TGS; 12-18-2011 at 01:30 PM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  5. #15
    Are they making the .32 or .327 Federal in a lightweight, short barrel J frame yet? Last I looked, the .327 was only a three inch model.

    While I understand the Georgia contingent is fine with the .22 lr Smith, being a Alaska resident, I am big bore all the way, and about to get a model 351 in .22 magnum. Apparently there is some Gold Dot ammo in .22 magnum designed for the short J frame.

    After reading about the model 43C in HH's post, I looked and they appear to be very hard to get. I suspect SLG is running down the J frame in that caliber, so he can hold down demand while he scouts for one.

    Kidding aside, I see the J frame as a hide out, as opposed to a true back-up, and you get points for having one in any caliber. Often I have a short 870 with Brenneke slugs and a .44 or 10mm, and would really like something to harvest spruce grouse while out hiking in Alaska, so the .22 lr or .22 magnum is appealing. My wife complains when I do a select shot maneuver (loaded with slugs and select a bird shot load) as there are more pellets than she likes in the birds.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Are they making the .32 or .327 Federal in a lightweight, short barrel J frame yet? Last I looked, the .327 was only a three inch model.
    The S&W 632 .327 Federal is in both 2" and 3". There's some less desirable brands such as Taurus and Charter that also have snubbies.

    For .32 H&R, there's also snubbies and while not as impressive as .327, is still a great compromise. You can also ream older S&W .32 Longs for .32 H&R since it's really a .32 S&W Long +p and not a true magnum round. The pressure is only slightly more than a .32 S&W long and comparable to .38 Special chambered in the same frame, whereas .327 Federal is something whoa-hot like 42,000psi or so.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Are they making the .32 or .327 Federal in a lightweight, short barrel J frame yet? Last I looked, the .327 was only a three inch model.

    While I understand the Georgia contingent is fine with the .22 lr Smith, being a Alaska resident, I am big bore all the way, and about to get a model 351 in .22 magnum. Apparently there is some Gold Dot ammo in .22 magnum designed for the short J frame.

    After reading about the model 43C in HH's post, I looked and they appear to be very hard to get. I suspect SLG is running down the J frame in that caliber, so he can hold down demand while he scouts for one.

    GJM hit on most of my issue with the 32's. If it's not an airweight J, why bother at all? Also, I prefer .35 cal as a starting point for defense, but I don't know much about the newer 32's.

    GJM, I know you were kidding about holding down demand, but I have no objection to the gun per se, just its intended use. I will likely get one, probably as a field gun, if it's accurate enough, and if not, then maybe as a test gun to compare to my airweight .38's. I have a steel, 6 shot .22 J, and it is pretty nice, just heavier than it needs to be to make it worth carrying.

    Now bear in mind, I'm a small guy, and I manage to carry a railed, magwell equipped, steel 5" 1911 anytime I'm dressed. It doesn't go in my underwear, but I guess you have to make a compromise somewhere:-) I always find it amusing when someone tells me how serious they are, they're bigger than me, and yet they carry a sub optimal pistol. Since we all "know" that pistols are poor weapons to begin with, why not carry a gun that lets you shoot to your full ability? I can shoot a snubbie pretty well, but no one can shoot a snubbie as well as a full size duty gun.

  8. #18
    Member HeadHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Are you saying it did that in all of the tests or just one (bare gel, presumably)?
    one test, four layers of denim per the protocol.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Even the highest quality .22 ammo is more likely to have misfires than the average centerfire round. It's simply a function of the way the cartridge and the gun work.
    That's an assumption, not a proven fact. The many anecdotes about rimfire reliability come from usage of bulk promotional ammo. OTOH, the rimfire target community, which can be quite fanatical about ammo performance reports many thousands of rounds fired from the same lots of high quality ammo sans any misfires.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    As I've said before, I'm not sure that's a valid way to analyze the problem. If nothing else, there is an obvious data gathering bias against failures to stop. The person who is mugged, draws a .22, and still gets robbed, beaten, or even killed is less likely to report the ballistic effect (if any) of the gun that didn't work.
    No, the way I have phrased the question to over 700 caliber obsessed firearms instructors and thousands of forum observers with the same obsession is as follows:
    I am looking for incidents where the would be victim shot their attacker with a small caliber weapon (.22, .25, .32, .380) and, after the shot was fired, was injured or killed by the predator.

    Only incidents involving Armed Citizens are relevant to this research, NOT Law Enforcement Officers. That is to say, I am looking for "mousegun" failures in the hands of Private Citizens.
    Again, the silence to my challenge has been deafening. I am open to alternate methods of analyzing the problem that do not involve mere conjecture. I am not interested in including LEOs because their METT-T is as different from private citizens as from the soldiers invading Iraq in 2003.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Can you define "the mission" for your purposes? Are we talking about 100s of documented incidents in which a .22 bullet caused rapid physical incapacitation or simply stories in which the mere presence of any gun correlated with the GG surviving?
    100s of documented incidents where the villain, upon being shot with a .22, .25, or .32, remembered he was late for his root canal appointment and had to leave. As Tom Givens says: "look at the time."
    When I give private lessons, if I need to demo, I use the student's gun. That way they don't think I'm using a tricked out SCCY to be able to shoot well.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLG View Post
    So, while I can't agree with most of what you wrote, it is interesting. A few quick issues, if you don't mind.

    Did you link to a tv show? What does that illustrate?
    The link is to a synopsis of an actual event.
    In a desperate attempt to save her and her husband's life, Susan grabs the .22 caliber pistol in her bedroom and engages in a gun battle with three masked men who invade their house late one night.
    She shot one of them, he remembered he was late for his root canal, ran out the door, and died in the front yard. I Survived is a great program, well worth watching. Incidentally, several people featured solved their problems with .22s.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLG View Post
    Do you really clip your gun to your underwear? Your underwear must be pretty beefy.
    Nope, briefs I buy at Target. You'd be surprised how easy it is to carry a 11 ounce gun. The ClipGrip from DeSantis helps a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLG View Post
    Capacity is a good thing, though no one will call me capacity obsessed. I personally would rather have 5 rounds of .38 than 8 (possible) rounds of .22
    Why? It's based on the assumption that a single .38 will produce more results than a single round of .22, which is an assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLG View Post
    Failures of .22 in civilian hands is not something I can quote off the top of my head.
    That's a common problem I have encountered in the course of my research.

    To each his own.
    When I give private lessons, if I need to demo, I use the student's gun. That way they don't think I'm using a tricked out SCCY to be able to shoot well.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    The link is to a synopsis of an actual event. She shot one of them, he remembered he was late for his root canal, ran out the door, and died in the front yard. I Survived is a great program, well worth watching. Incidentally, several people featured solved their problems with .22s.
    Ok, my bad. It was not clear to me what you were trying to show. However, this gets back to the heart of my issue with how you look at effectiveness. I don't consider the above outcome to be desirable. It happened to work out for the lady, but if the wounded guy had chosen to fight, he obviously had enough steam left to do so. I don't want a guy attacking me in my bedroom to die in the front yard, I want him down, on the ground, as fast as possible. Other results may still suffice, but are not models that I want to emulate.

    Anyway, aside from differences in opinion when it comes to terminal effectiveness, I'm still interested in hearing about the accuracy you get out of your combo.

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