[SLG didn't really start this thread, it was split from an equally informative thread -- Tom_Jones]
Not trying to slam the well known and respected instructor, but it occurs to me that if you're the kind of guy who believes in putting it in the eye socket, just how many rounds do you need? How many eye sockets do you think you'll be putting it in?Originally Posted by GJM
Seriously, I'd like to hear more about the rational behind this.
Last edited by Tom_Jones; 12-23-2011 at 09:18 PM.
That's a slippery slope line of logic. The same could be applied to P30's Glocks, M&P's etc.
Men freely believe that which they desire.
Julius Caesar
Wheeler,
Then I guess my post wasn't clear. If you can put a bullet into someones eye, on demand, in a fight, then either you have a shooting ability that is pretty much unheard of, or you are thinking more along the lines of an entangled fight. Forgetting about the skill needed to do the same, on demand, in an entangled fight for a minute, if you do put a bullet into someones eye socket, presumably the fight is then over. If that's not the case, then the "benefits" of a .22 go away. So, assuming a round in the eye socket, how many rounds do you need per attacker? One. How many attackers do you think you can handle? 5? More than 5? Since 5 seems to be an awful lot of guys for one person to deal with, and even the smallest snubbie carries 5 shots, what is the benefit to carrying a high capacity .22 over a standard capacity .22, let alone something with a bit more reliability to it? Reliability in this case does not just mean "stopping power", but more literally, will the round ignite when hit by the firing pin?
Maybe I missed something, and since I've never met a trainer who advocated the above, I'd like to hear more about it.
First, he didn't say he was a "put it in the eye socket guy," I did. Based on my watching him shoot a number of times, he without question has that ability. I was told about the Smith .22 magnum by someone else, saw it, but did not have a chance to ask him about his rationale for it. I never heard him advocate for or against it for others. Out of respect for his privacy, I am not going to post his name on this forum.
I am intrigued about the .22 magnum/light J frame combination, because there are a number of instances such a caliber would be useful for harvesting game when I am out in the field, and I suspect all of us would shoot the .22 magnum better at speed. I prefer a J frame to a small pocket auto, but always wish the J frame held more than five cartridges. As to the terminal performance of seven .22 magnum bullets versus five 38's, that is above my pay grade.
Then I guess I partially misunderstood. You were referring to his accuracy, not his doctrine when you said "put it in the eye socket..." Since none of us here seem to know his doctrine, I guess I'll have to put that on hold. As before, I'd like to hear more about it.
"Based on my watching him shoot a number of times, he without question has that ability." Ability in a fight, or ability on a range? This gets back to my earlier post. I know LOTS of guys who have the ability on the range. I don't know any who think they could do it in a fight.
Being a moron, it didn't occur to me until just now that I might be derailing this thread, which is not my intention. If a mod wants to move it, or tell me to start a new thread, I will, though it sounds like there's not much more to learn about it at his time.
I don't think you were derailing it -- just showing the healthy skepticism which makes for a useful thread. I would be interested in hearing about how a .22 magnum might work versus a .38 J frame, considering round count, ability to shoot, and terminal performance.
SLG, check your PM's.
Well, aside from healthy skepticism, I am genuinely interested in what a well respected trainer thinks about the issue. You don't get better or more knowledgeable if you don't examine others' ideas.
Now, knowing who the trainer is, and knowing quite a bit about his background, I classify him as a shooting instructor, not a fighting instructor. I've also spent a couple of hundred (literally) hours on his shooting system. As you can imagine, that changes the info slightly.
Last edited by SLG; 12-17-2011 at 06:18 PM. Reason: accuracy
SLG, rather than let the thread drift, I'll wait for an additional thread to be added or however the mods handle it.
Headhunter would be a good one to weigh in on this one, as he is the resident snub expert.
Men freely believe that which they desire.
Julius Caesar
This is my 317. It has a nice trigger and runs very reliably with high quality ammo. The Velocitor ammo pictured penetrated 17 inches of gelatin under the FBI protocol from a Beretta 21A. If you fed your centerfire carry gun Aquila, S&B, or other crap, it wouldn't surprise you when it didn't work 100%. Same is true of Golden Bullet, Wildcat, and other .22 bulk crap. In any case, what's immediate action with a revolver?; press the trigger again. I would like to have a 43C but they last about 10 minutes when Bud's gets them in.
I know I am considered a maverick in the industry, along with the other well known instructor, for carrying .22s at times but they have worked for me on several occasions, so frankly I don't care what anyone else says or thinks. Once again, I throw down the gauntlet to demonstrate the alleged veritable multitude of mousegun caliber failures in the hands of private citizens. I have been making that challenge for years; to date, the silence has been deafening. OTOH, I can document 100s of incidents where .22s have accomplished the mission just fine.
I don't care if the villain dies, runs away, rushes to the hospital, or goes home and pushes a wirebrush soaked in Listerine through the hole in the back of his mouth. As long as he receives the message to leave me and mine alone, that's good enough. I don't care about putting the bracelets on him, that's a job for the PoPo, not me. In fact, I prefer that he die outside my home, rather than in it, because I don't want to have to clean up his loathsome blood-borne pathogens from my house.
Even when I am sitting around in my underwear, any home invader is going to end up leaking because the 317 is on me. Also, it has 60% more ammo in it than a .38, which should be a consideration for the capacity obsessed.
Rant mode off.
No one complains about being shot with the wrong caliber. -- Walt Rauch
Caliber matters little, compared with competence, but no one want to hear that! --John Farnam
When I give private lessons, if I need to demo, I use the student's gun. That way they don't think I'm using a tricked out SCCY to be able to shoot well.
Are you saying it did that in all of the tests or just one (bare gel, presumably)?
Even the highest quality .22 ammo is more likely to have misfires than the average centerfire round. It's simply a function of the way the cartridge and the gun work. Admittedly, as you pointed out, this problem is less grievous with the revolver because the immediate action solution is intuitive and quick.If you fed your centerfire carry gun Aquila, S&B, or other crap, it wouldn't surprise you when it didn't work 100%. Same is true of Golden Bullet, Wildcat, and other .22 bulk crap.
As I've said before, I'm not sure that's a valid way to analyze the problem. If nothing else, there is an obvious data gathering bias against failures to stop. The person who is mugged, draws a .22, and still gets robbed, beaten, or even killed is less likely to report the ballistic effect (if any) of the gun that didn't work.Once again, I throw down the gauntlet to demonstrate the alleged veritable multitude of mousegun caliber failures in the hands of private citizens. I have been making that challenge for years; to date, the silence has been deafening.
Can you define "the mission" for your purposes? Are we talking about 100s of documented incidents in which a .22 bullet caused rapid physical incapacitation or simply stories in which the mere presence of any gun correlated with the GG surviving?OTOH, I can document 100s of incidents where .22s have accomplished the mission just fine.
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