Travis Haley SKIMMER Glock Trigger (Just Released)

[VolGrad]

Plenty of firearms that don't feature a drop-safety have been safely dropped before. Just because a drop-safety is disabled does not mean that the gun will fire every time it's dropped. But that doesn't change the fact that in this case, the drop-safety is disabled.

Fair enough on the first part. I guess I'm simple minded though because I am not yet convinced the drop safety is really "disabled" based on the fact the trigger bar can be pressed down with a tool. I am not concinced a hard drop would cause the same results.

And no, using that slide plate and a punch on a normal Glock doesn't "disable lots of things that would never be disrupted"

I was merely pointing out if you removed a part of a firearm that was normally present (in this case replacing with a half plate) and poked around in the inside with a tool there is the change things would be disrupted, not specifically a GLOCK. Admittedly, that was a very overly general statement.

I don't wish to continue to belabor the issue. Some are convinced, some aren't We will likely not change each other's minds. I feel I've let myself get sucked into something here and apologize if it's appeared as any sort of personal attack. That wasn't my intent.

Seeing as I do have the Skimmer in my parts drawer I think I should try pistol whipping a desk with it to see if I can get the trigger bar to drop.

Please do. I'd love to see this video ... for more reasons than one.

Even if the trigger bar doesn't drop though your video will be dismissed as one man's test ... as opposed to the other man's test.

[VolGrad]

combined with last post

[JAD]

Y'all could always put in the immense amount of work that has been done to show that the Series 80 drop safety works, and that Series 70 1911s are substantially more likely to go bang when dropped on their muzzle... so that people could robustly ignore the work, and continue to actively avoid 1911s with drop safeties. I rip the Series 80 parts out of my guns, for example.

It's a limited parallel, though -- the 1911 has to be dropped *on its muzzle* to go off. Unless you're dropping it on your baby's head, while an ND into concrete isn't going to be any fun, it's probably not going to result in catastrophic injury or death.

By contrast, when a friend broke the drop safety in his P7 (rattle rattle, little part falls out in two pieces while he's dry firing, huh I wonder what that is, sure Jon I'd be happy to loan you my pistol) it would discharge when the slide was dropped... muuuch more exciting.

If the drop safety is disabled but the FP is still active, will the gun actually go off? If a Glock ADs in the forest, does it make a sound?

[Steve S.]

Anyone want to install the Skimmer, put their Glock in a vise, throw in a casing with just a live primer in it, and smack it with a hammer repeatedly at various angles?

I also have no dog in this fight, and am not interested in the Skimmer (I dont mind pretravel). But I do think VolGrad has a point. If you poked around inside an M&P, you could trip the sear deactivation lever. Could this happen in real life by dropping it? Probably not.

I havent seen Rob's video, but if the trigger bar isn't able to be engaged by dropping an assembled and loaded Glock, wouldn't this be akin to Springfield using 9mm firing pins in their 1911s as their "drop safety"? If it can't fire from being dropped, then it's drop safe - correct?

Again - just playing Devil's Advocate a bit. Could honestly care less either way.

[167]

Anyone want to install the Skimmer, put their Glock in a vise, throw in a casing with just a live primer in it, and smack it with a hammer repeatedly at various angles?

Putting the gun a vice would negate the test. But, if someone wants to send me a Skimmer I will try it (it would have to be one for a Gen4 Glock)

All that would really need to be done to see if the drop safety is disabled to a point to potentially cause a problem in a fully assembled gun is to slam the gun down on the mag well then see if the slide can be removed without pulling the trigger.

I think there are some semantic issues going on though. What Glock refers to as the drop safety, is not the only mechanism in the gun to make it safe when dropped (The fire pin safety/block also serves a similar purpose). It is called a drop safety because of how it functions. The trigger bar is prevented from dropping down and releasing the striker as it does when the trigger is pulled.

Even though the drop safety is apparently disabled with the Skimmer, it does not necessarily mean the Glock will fire when dropped, it just means one of the redundant systems built into the gun is no longer functioning correctly.

However, if the drop safety is disabled and the trigger bar cruciform can be caused to drop by hitting the mag well on something, it would mean that in a fight the slide would have to be cycled before the gun would fire if that did happen. For example, if you got knocked on your butt, or something similar and the mag well of the pistol had hard enough contact with something as to cause the trigger bar to drop and the striker to be released, but stopped by the firing pin block (thus not firing), before the gun would function again the slide would have to be manually cycled to reset the striker and trigger bar. Even if safety is maintained because of the Glock's redundant safety mechanisms, it could be a compromising condition in a fight. The drop safety not only prevent the gun from firing when the trigger isn't pulled, it also keeps the gun in a firing condition.

[joshs]

The drop safety in a Glock is the plastic ledge in the trigger housing. The tigger bar either rests on the ledge while the trigger is forward/at rest or it doesn't. Whether or not the trigger bar can drop due to inertia instead of an external force (in this case a punch) is a separate question. If the Skimmer places the trigger bar far enough back that the trigger bar is no longer riding on the ledge, then the drop safety is disabled. With the different variations in Glock small parts, it is possible that the guns Glock Trigger tested did not exhibit this problem. This seems especially likely with the Skimmer because my understanding is they were trying to eliminate as much pre-travel as possible. What may have one gun right on the edge of deactivation of the drop safety (for pre-travel reduction) is likely to mean in other guns the trigger bar will not be on the ledge at all.

[VolGrad]

I think there are some semantic issues going on though. What Glock refers to as the drop safety, is not the only mechanism in the gun to make it safe when dropped (The fire pin safety/block also serves a similar purpose). It is called a drop safety because of how it functions. The trigger bar is prevented from dropping down and releasing the striker as it does when the trigger is pulled.

Even though the drop safety is apparently disabled with the Skimmer, it does not necessarily mean the Glock will fire when dropped, it just means one of the redundant systems built into the gun is no longer functioning correctly.

The drop safety in a Glock is the plastic ledge in the trigger housing. The tigger bar either rests on the ledge while the trigger is forward/at rest or it doesn't. Whether or not the trigger bar can drop due to inertia instead of an external force (in this case a punch) is a separate question. If the Skimmer places the trigger bar far enough back that the trigger bar is no longer riding on the ledge, then the drop safety is disabled.

These are both very good posts IMO. They sort of sum up the entire discussion into a few sentences.

Given what has been stated above I will concede based on the semantics the drop safety appears to have been disabled on the specimen tested in the video. The separate issue is whether or not one thinks that renders the gun a safety risk (risk of ND or risk of gun becoming inoperable in a fight). That's the real issue here. Some will say no, some will say yes.

Good posts gentlemen. Thanks for breaking it down like that. I think you both articulated the potential issue well.

[fuse]

If a Glock ADs in the forest, does it make a sound?

Awesome

[TCinVA]

Even if the trigger bar doesn't drop though your video will be dismissed as one man's test ... as opposed to the other man's test.

Let's be absolutely clear about a couple of things:

1. The "other man" is a factory certified armorer for a whole bunch of weapon systems. Including Glock. This is considerably different than just some dude poking incompetently at a gun. It is by all information I can find, a well-trained Glock armorer performing a routine function check of the weapon, one which the weapon fails with these parts installed in it. Now one can argue that the failure is irrelevant when it comes to real world use of the weapon, but the bottom line is that the same Glock Inc. that designed the weapon also designed the function check that Mr. Jensen is demonstrating in the video.

2. As Josh mentioned, while folks assume that a Glock is a Glock, they have in fact made a number of changes to parts and dimensions of their products over the years that are invisible to most end users. Even to most poorly trained armorers. The ones who have done more than show up for the certificate and who have made it their practice to learn to the point where they are able to describe in mind-numbing detail the specific differences in dimensions and design of a number of different parts over the Glock's almost 30 years on our shores probably have a better than average read on what, exactly, a trigger kit is doing in the weapon and how that might be beneficial/problematic. Smith and Wesson produced and sold M&P's that experienced failures to reset the striker due to tolerance issues with trigger bars, sear housings, etc. If S&W is capable of getting tolerances wrong on factory parts made with fairly sophisticated machinery to the point where the weapon doesn't function properly, then it follows that a third party who is selling a hand-assembled "drop in" trigger kit for a pistol that could come with any number of different internal dimensions based on production differences nobody outside the factory would know about could well find that between the tolerance stack of the pistol they're working with and the amount of human error involved in customizing factory parts (which also come with a margin of error) that stuff doesn't always work as expected. This isn't a reflection on anyone's character, it's just objective reality. Sometimes even nice people end up on the unpleasant pointy end of objective reality.

3. Lots of people who are vocal on forums have personal relationships with individuals inside and outside the industry. It's natural to feel somewhat protective of folks we've developed some level of relationship with when they're saying or selling something. The statements about Mr. Jensen, however, have nothing to do with the fact that he happens to be a particularly pleasant human being. Mr. Jensen is, in fact, a pretty swell guy...but apart from that he's objectively knowledgeable on this particular topic. In the same way we defer to DocGKR on wound ballistics, not because he's a swell guy, but because he's got verifiable credentials on the subject matter, or defer to the knowledge of someone like Tom Givens or SouthNarc when it comes to the realities of self defense on the street, those who know enough about Mr. Jensen's training and experience tend to give him credibility on that basis rather than on the basis of feeling towards him as a person. I'm sure the people who are making and marketing this kit are perfectly wonderful human beings...but if their product causes a failed function check in even some pistols it's something potential buyers need to know.

[ToddG]

To everyone who is saying it still won't go off when dropped, you clearly aren't understanding the concept behind redundant safeties. The drop safety is redundant with the firing pin block. And as anyone who's been around Glocks for the past 20 years can tell you, their striker blocks sometimes fail. Sometimes the fail in a way that prevents the gun from firing, and sometimes they fail in a way that allows the striker to move freely without touching the trigger. Neither failure is common but both happen often enough that I've seen agencies need wholesale replacement of their entire fleet.

The part clearly disables one of the internal safety mechanisms that Glock itself thinks the gun needs to be safe under the variety of conditions in which it may be pressed into service. Period. Full stop.