Everything my bullets hit goes on my tab, so I shouldn't shoot things I can't afford to buy.Originally Posted by M2CattleCo
Everything my bullets hit goes on my tab, so I shouldn't shoot things I can't afford to buy.
I was actually shocked at how well this video expressed the topic, especially if being viewed by a novice.
The one concept I think is missing in debates such as this is the false assumption that there will only be one suspect in a violent encounter.
A couple of years ago Garry Roberts started a topic in which he proposed that the Glock 19 is the new J-Frame. The concept was centered around an individual having to face more than one threat, and was your 5 shot revolve up to the task. This got me to thinking at the time, so I had one of our civilian data entry specialists at the District I was assigned to at that time run some numbers for me. I had her pull data from the previous robbery season (AKA: Christmas Shopping Season). I was interested in Aggravated Robberies involving a firearm, number of suspects, and number of suspects armed. The data pulled for my part of the city was that the average number of suspects was a fraction under three, since you can't have 2.85 of a suspect, I rounded it to 3. On average, if one suspect was armed, they all tended to be.
I agree completely with the statements posted so far about owning each and every round that comes out of my gun. This is why accuracy under stress is so important. But I also know that baring a central nervous system shot, it may take a couple of rounds to cause enough bleeding to lower the blood pressure enough to stop a suspect from doing whatever it was that justified shooting them in the first place. Three rounds per suspect times three suspects is nine rounds. Not making me all warm and fuzzy caring a 5 shot J-Frame...
I am all about a balance of capacity vs. ease of carry. But personally I can find this balance somewhere between a Glock 26 and a Glock 19.
I wrestle with this conundrum each time I walk out the door with only a J frame and a speed strip. (But I do limit the exposure to anywhere I can go without driving.)
There's nothing civil about this war.
This is why I have concerns with people blindly using FBI ammunition test protocols and ammunition that passes as a good choice for everyone. With the average torso being 10" front to back what happens when you have a thin subject hit straight on with deep penetrating ammunition? Some rounds that pass FBI test penetrate 20"+. If the round alters trajectory while penetrating and then over penetrating the shooter is still responsible. A round that penetrates under 12" is penalized with 1 point where a round that penetrates over 18" gets still gets 5 points. Add in penalties for rounds that don't penetrate 12" minimum and rounds that don't retain 80% of their weight and it is easy to see deep penetrating trend in ammo that passes.
124gr +P GDHP, among others, has a good track record of being found under the skin on the far side of the bad guy or in his clothes, or on the pavement within a few steps.
Stick with Doc's list. You'll be fine.
I'm not concerned for me as i use the FBI test results as a guide for ammo selection. I am concerned for the masses that claim if it passes the FBI tests it is good to go and never consider their likely circumstances any further. Since it appears only 1% get more training than their CCW class likely even less people do any ammunition evaluation. I liken it to the common comments spewing the "21' rule" for a subject with an edged weapon. People act like, and thus select equipment and train with that mindset that these things are absolutes.
I had a reserve officer shoot a suspect armed with a knife across a car lightning fast and holster just as quickly and say "21' rule" in a CAPS scenario. Needless to say I was shocked and had to explain how 21' and the Tueller drill need to be applied/understood.
The person selecting home defense ammo doesn't benefit from selecting ammo based on 30 year old FBI testing parameters that includes rounds through windshield glass and car door simulations and the like for 4 out of 6 tests when they live in a trailer park or apartment complex but they will likely look no further into the matter.
But, but, but...I only have the standard pressure rounds!
Fortunately, I came across this quote from Doc and was able to get a sound night's sleep again...
There's nothing civil about this war.
octagon--Your comments above seem to indicate that you do not understand the FBI ammo test protocol very well. The criteria have been reviewed and revised multiple times since being adopted. It is still one of the best indicators of ammunition terminal performance capabilities. Sticking with defensive ammunition that penetrates in the 12-18" range is a wise course of action, whether in LE or as a civilian, as the anatomy and physiology of an attacker do not change whether they are assaulting Police or a citizen...
Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
As someone who invested in a bunch of the std 124 GD, I was chagrined to learn in a recent Chuck Haggard class that this only applies out of >=4". It is not a good G43 round.But, but, but...I only have the standard pressure rounds!
Fortunately, I came across this quote from Doc and was able to get a sound night's sleep again...
Ignore Alien Orders
I currently have it loaded in a G17. So you're saying it should be okay in my G19 but not my G26?
(Hoping the good Dr. will weigh in here as well. It would be very much appreciated.)
Last edited by blues; 04-15-2017 at 01:45 PM.
There's nothing civil about this war.
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