Guns, Skills, and Ammo For Self Defense

[octagon]

My argument has I hope been respectful and with the intent to gain knowledge for myself and others who may agree or disagree but don't post but still read the posts and replies. I acknowledge Doc's expertise and I hope to gain better insight from his knowledge and experience. That sometimes calls for asking questions for clarity. I hope that as adults being respectful while challenging what may be the status quo is how we as a group and as a larger body of law abiding gun owners (People who get PF results in searches and find the site) progress. For years there were followers of Strasbourg,RII(Rapid Incapacitation Index) Marshall/Sanow etc... These weren't always taken as gospel but there were plenty of supporters touting their favorite test. With change and evolution the FBI test came about to help put these previous protocols into better light. What happens when we find a better choice of tests or evaluation? We can't find it if we never consider it. I am just asking to consider it. If you or anyone is fine with the FBI tests and rankings that is great and I wouldn't fault you for that. I followed the recommendations and still believe they are the best we have had for LEO and those who likely find themselves in similar situations. That isn't everyone like a home defender.

[Tamara]

Again, ammunition which offers good performance in the 12-18" penetration range works well, as does ammo which is successful against 4LD and auto windshields.

No one is recommending ammo which goes 20+ inches for self-defense use in urban/suburban settings.

octagon, please read the above again.

[DocGKR]

The FBI tests are outstanding and the raw data is outstanding.

"What happens when we find a better choice of tests or evaluation?"

Then it will get adopted.

"We can't find it if we never consider it."

That is what folks who do research are constantly considering. In fact, the U.S. government gathered numerous experts from a variety of disciplines, including military and law enforcement end-users, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to form the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team to conduct a 4 year, 6 million dollar study to determine what terminal performance assessment best reflected the actual findings noted in combat--all options were looked at.

A variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing—this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. Some individuals seem to be under the mistaken impression that one of these areas is more important than others--this is not the case, as each category provides important information to researchers.

[BehindBlueI's]

While I suppose it does happen, I can count on zero fingers how many serious injuries I've seen resulting from over penetration. Under penetration that failed to stop the assault, well, that requires more fingers.

[SsevenN]

I was taught that I own every bullet and the consequences for its action until it stops.

I've always liked "every bullet has a lawyer attached to it".

[Rex G]

I was actually shocked at how well this video expressed the topic, especially if being viewed by a novice.

The one concept I think is missing in debates such as this is the false assumption that there will only be one suspect in a violent encounter.

A couple of years ago Garry Roberts started a topic in which he proposed that the Glock 19 is the new J-Frame. The concept was centered around an individual having to face more than one threat, and was your 5 shot revolve up to the task. This got me to thinking at the time, so I had one of our civilian data entry specialists at the District I was assigned to at that time run some numbers for me. I had her pull data from the previous robbery season (AKA: Christmas Shopping Season). I was interested in Aggravated Robberies involving a firearm, number of suspects, and number of suspects armed. The data pulled for my part of the city was that the average number of suspects was a fraction under three, since you can't have 2.85 of a suspect, I rounded it to 3. On average, if one suspect was armed, they all tended to be.

I agree completely with the statements posted so far about owning each and every round that comes out of my gun. This is why accuracy under stress is so important. But I also know that baring a central nervous system shot, it may take a couple of rounds to cause enough bleeding to lower the blood pressure enough to stop a suspect from doing whatever it was that justified shooting them in the first place. Three rounds per suspect times three suspects is nine rounds. Not making me all warm and fuzzy caring a 5 shot J-Frame...

I am all about a balance of capacity vs. ease of carry. But personally I can find this balance somewhere between a Glock 26 and a Glock 19.

This sounds right. Multiple armed hijackers is all too common here in the Houston area, and this has been true for a while. One, in the "nice" Upper Kirby neighborhood, on streets where I sometimes walked our big dog at the time, involved at least five, apparently using mobile communication devices. Four pursued the complainant on foot, armed with at least one 9mm handgun. (I collected the empty cases; my investigation.) One of them stayed in the Suburban, to better head-off the fleeing complainant, and fired at least one round with a shotgun. The nimble complainant evaded by cutting through the middle of the block, over some impressively tall fences.

The above scenario was before the Katrina evacuees arrived, and "annexed" swaths of Houston. Since then, it has gotten worse. Three/Four or more, all armed, sometimes in multiple vehicles, is not uncommon. The armed robbery pattern has changed, from being concentrated in specific areas, to being more random, and happening where robberies used to be rare. Our crime analysis folks tell us that is because the former southern Louisiana folks had no established territories, so all of greater Houston became their hunting ground.

My initial response, pre-Katrina, was to carry a third .357 revolver more of the time, rather than the formerly-normal two, during personal time. (125-grain .357 Magnum will change someone's channel!) This was when I carried a G22 duty pistol. I worked a G29 into the personal-time mix, for a while, before switching to .40 SIG P229 for duty, and gradually became all-SIG, 24/7/365, for a while. Today, my aging hands like the kinder, gentler 9mm, mostly in multiple G19 and G26 pistols. 124-grain +P Gold Dots have been my norm since 2015.