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Thread: AAR: Gabe White: Pistol Shooting Solutions - Watkinsville, GA April 1st, 2nd

  1. #21
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Thanks so much to ASH556 for taking the time to write up his experience with the class, and thanks to everyone for their comments.

    This was a really strong class. I am very pleased to have awarded six Light Pins and seven Dark Pins. All the pins require significantly more than a base level of competency to earn. There are a whole lot of people who have been shooting and training a long time, who are perfectly competent and frankly would probably get the job done in a great many situations, who would not get any of the awards. Dark is hard, Light is harder, and Turbo is intended to ballpark M/GM-level drawing and shooting on a single target.

    Performance loss in a stressful on-demand circumstance such as the class testing, compared with the level of performance one experiences in a practice environment, is totally normal IMHO. It's definitely the way it works for me.
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  2. #22
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    jlw sent me these notes earlier, and I think they are very representative of what I said. There is one point of clarification that I offered to him, and would like to share here:

    A nuance that I meant to say, but may not really come across in one sentence, is that anything that happens to be noticed during the doink doink doink that's relevant to an ongoing judgment about the use of force, should be acted upon (maybe stopping shooting.) That level of decisionmaking can and should be going on 100% of the time. Where I said "go back to decisionmaking", I mean as the primary task from a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register. During the shooting though, we need to have the gun mounted and be carrying out the sighted shooting as our primary task, which is going to necessarily obstruct our vision and some of what we would see with the gun dismounted, probably until we get to the big signal to return the primary task to decisionmaking (the threat falls/turns/exits the sights, though even that can be subject to perception of threat moving to cover or running facing away while firing back at us.)

    During the shooting we are shooting, not looking, but if we notice something, act on it. After we get done shooting and maybe noticing, go back to more pure looking.
    Another under-practiced area for me is the subject of shooting from low ready, and using my more developed 'eyes then index gun swiftly to the exact spot being looked at' transition skills separately.

    I had not really considered Gabe's point that a gun trained on the target, or where we EXPECT the target to appear necessarily obstructs our view, and IMHO may be slower and less reliable than a low ready, broader focus position that can quickly identify threats and snap eyes/gun to target.

    I also don't train shots from multiple finger positions, or dry firing from a position of simulated recoil/reset. While some of the material was quite familiar to me I still came back with a nice sack of 'nuggets' that I can practice and eventually be able to add to my bag of 'on-demand' tricks.

    I don't get too excited when I learn a new nugget/skill and can't immediately apply it with any proficiency in a class. This is irritating/disappointing to me and sometimes frustrating to an instructor, but I also know that if I go home and work it in a few dry/live fire sessions I will likely be able to master it. Being exposed to a concept and perceiving its value is more important to me than being able to apply it after an initial exposure.
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  3. #23
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post

    Performance loss in a stressful on-demand circumstance such as the class testing, compared with the level of performance one experiences in a practice environment, is totally normal IMHO. It's definitely the way it works for me.
    This has been much on my mind; trying to figure it out. I've had butterfies at make ready in matches and shot well. I've had none and was loose as a goose and shot poorly. This weekend I never had a butterfly. Palpable exhilaration was especially evident before that 2.18 (raw) BD with the fortuitous 3x5 hit .

    I would be truly puzzled when I would see a scored result different than the numerous reps just before it. Since I wasn't timed in the practice reps I'm not sure but the timed runs looked faster through my eyes than my practice runs but that can be deceiving. But it would have been a dumb mistake if true (prolly was)

    What I feel like I was doing mentally was chasing an outcome. And outcome that has a name. It's name is Light Pin and it had a specific number.

    I've got to spend some time without the PACT timer perhaps and shoot the process. Hrhawk mentioned to me on Sun that in practice when you think about your process you shoot well and when you go for score you can get out ahead of the process and shoot for the score and then stuff can get fouled. I've intellectualized that before but I've not controlled it. That's what I'm thinking anyway.
    Last edited by JHC; 04-04-2017 at 03:24 PM.
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  4. #24
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    This has been much on my mind; trying to figure it out. I've had butterfies at make ready in matches and shot well. I've had none and was loose as a goose and shot poorly. This weekend I never had a butterfly. Palpable exhilaration was especially evident before that 2.18 BD with the fortuitous 3x5 hit .

    I would be truly puzzled when I would see a scored result different than the numerous reps just before it. Since I wasn't timed in the practice reps I'm not sure but the timed runs looked faster through my eyes than my practice runs but that can be deceiving. But it would have been a dumb mistake if true (prolly was)

    What I feel like I was doing mentally was chasing an outcome. And outcome that has a name. It's name is Light Pin and it had a specific number.

    I've got to spend some time without the PACT timer perhaps and shoot the process. Hrhawk mentioned to me on Sun that in practice when you think about your process you shoot well and when you go for score you can get out ahead of the process and shoot for the score and then stuff can get fouled. I've intellectualized that before but I've not controlled it. That's what I'm thinking anyway.
    I like this post a lot! As we discussed in person, I know I had stronger runs than what my on-demand test performance was. The question is, where did it break down? I think for me personally it's in the draw. Embarrassing as it is, I just have never executed as many SS IWB draws from concealment as we did in class and so sometimes I would hit it and sometimes I wouldn't. When the sights and the trigger tell you you should've hit well and you don't, grip is the next possible option.
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  5. #25
    Member Mobettadefense's Avatar
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    I had a truly wonderful, trying, stressful (in the best possible way) and challenging experience in the class. I could not be happier with the decision to sign up although I was worried that I would not be up to snuff enough to function at the level envisioned by the guru of go fast Mr. White. I have much less formal training than most of you guys but you were all very helpful and encouraging in this class. I love chances to perform under "duress" in any competitive endeavor and Pistol Solutions was simply an ideal challenge to so me how much needs to be improved and how to improve. When Gabe comes back I am absolutely signing up again!
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  6. #26
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    I was absolutely focused on process and sights not outcome.

    I also found that my draw seemed to steadily degrade as the class progressed. Early on when Gabe told me I was losing a tenth or two riding the grip before initiating the draw I was probably at my peak. As the class went on I was taking more and more time to get a solid grip, or blowing the grip and taking considerably more time to get the hits in spite of the bad grip.

    Fatigue was probably part of it. Also, I should have taped my strong hand fingers earlier, they were definitely getting chewed up as I was trying to maintain a weak hand crushing grip.

    The draw is where I stand to gain the most time. 0.20-.22 splits are pretty good for me, and I rarely get .18/.19's. If I am to make Turbo times on the Bill Drill, my draw is going to have to make up for my trigger finger deficiency.
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  7. #27
    My splits are slow by internet standards, so I needed to make time on both the draw and the upper A. Think that also holds true for Gabe.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  8. #28
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    My splits are slow by internet standards, so I needed to make time on both the draw and the upper A. Think that also holds true for Gabe.
    I completely agree. For me, the 0.50 times for the upper A are much more forgiving than the 0.20 splits for the body and an even a better place to make up time than the draw.

    It also occurs to me that it is a lot easier to practice for the Food Court Standards than it is to practice for the (not so randomly match director-selected) Classifier stage in the next match. The Classifiers as a group test a much broader set of skills. Apples and oranges, but still fruit.
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  9. #29
    Member martin_j001's Avatar
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    Ok, my notes from the class. As jlw posted, some of these may not make sense to all and especially those that weren't there, but I tried to be pretty clear so as to not forget or lose the message.

    April 1-2, 2017 Pistol Shooting Solutions with Gabe White

    Don't see sight pic, see sights moving and press when sight is on target--track sights

    Grip stance platform before sights and trigger brings gun back on target automatically

    "Shooting the sights" is shot calling while seeing the sights, this happens without seeing bullet holes

    Dry fire with 3 different finger placements

    Draw stroke hands high torso, fake surrender or by sides

    Jerk to move, like touching hot stove tension and fluidity slam hand onto gun dry fire fast draw a lot

    Jerk gun out hands come together as close to body as possible "retracted ready/position 3" slap support hand onto gun hard bring gun to smooth stop at end of extension

    Last inch or two of extension is where sights come into view onto target

    Work on draw without trigger press to smaller and larger targets. Eventually add in trigger press.

    If gun tight against body for draw, move thumb to "home" as and before gun comes out of holster.

    Float guide fluids gun to stop

    Make gun shape with gun hand as you clear garment.

    Shot calling
    Shoot into berm 5 shots but watch sights and their movement. Shoot aggressively

    Hold trigger back, raise front sight artificially, as front sight comes back on target reset and pull trigger (dry fire exercise)

    We are all confined by our own frame of reference

    Dry practice
    Draw
    Trigger press--mash trigger and if gun moves you did it wrong, hold the gun so it doesn't move (remember mini-lesson with Gabe Sunday morning)

    Pay very close attention to what happens in dry practice introspection, what you feel in hands, eyes shoulders even feelings

    Call shot every time, if any doubt, it wasn't good enough

    Should be tired after a few reps if you're doing it right

    Draw without firing shot, finger straight
    Draw without firing, finger to trigger but don't pull
    Draw and fire once
    From low ready aim to target with finger straight, finger in trigger no pressure, finger at break point, pull
    Simulate bring back to target--pull trigger hold back, raise front sight above target, track front sight down as release trigger and press again when in target
    Draw and fire at target, cycle slide, vision transfers to next target, then gun and pull trigger again
    Push really hard on time and accuracy demands in dry practice
    Draw to a specific point
    Timer to push practice in dry fire--chase par times, this is specific to push oneself
    Do not use timer when working "standards" to vice oneself in, when working "on demand" skill level
    Not faster or slower, but more or less aggressively
    Draw speed does not need to change for given distance/accuracy required, maintain basic character of motion, all in sights and trigger for farther distance
    Consistency of precision and accuracy

    Sirt great for safety in dry practice, keep all ammo out of dry practice area

    Dry practice is most of Gabes practice, 10 dry sessions a week dry, 1-2 occasions a week live

    Draws reloads target transitions short movement trigger trigger trigger grip sights trigger

    Ben Stoegers books are good stuff


    Shooting on the moving or while running
    Movement first, drag shooting with it for this exercise (prioritize movement)
    Do not accept coarser aiming or trigger
    Bigger wobble zone
    Separate speed of legs/body from finger trigger. Don't run trigger finger at same speed
    Aim more shoot less
    When running to support side shoot one handed--trigger control and sights all in alignment
    Track the target, bring gun to point of aim
    Takeoff to move quickly "pick your feet up so you fall down, turn feet 90 degrees"
    Know you have somewhere to go before you move

    Shooting from cover
    Cover gets degraded, keep this in mind
    Don't shoot your own cover
    Expose yourself for short periods of time
    Change where you come out from cover from (standing, kneeling, etc)
    When exposed, present from ready position to be the most ready for any position they can come out from
    Use cover to back away from the problem and escape, or widen view of incident
    Actively use cover to fight, don't be passive in thinking it is your shield
    As always, sights and trigger, always fire with intention to hit
    Jeff Martin
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  10. #30
    I haven't played any of the established gun games since 2014 which is when I jumped into the open enrollment training waters. So, none of my past classifications are a true test of where I would be now. I have never shot USPSA at all and wouldn't know where I would fall there. I was a high expert under the old IDPA classifier, and I was a master in GSSF with times in the low 60s.

    I earned a light pin with one turbo run and four or five light pin runs. One dark pin run was my slowing down to stick a head shot on a failure drill. One a dark pin run on one of the bill drills I had a bad grip on the draw. There was one run on my first split Bill Drill where, due to already having secured a light pin, I tried to burn it down and pulled a head shot into the body.

    I was slow on the draw the entire weekend.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

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