Preventing ND's: DA vs safety

[SLG]

You are correct that my preference is for safety-equipped pistols. However, I am open to change. It seems to me that many well-qualified members of this board recommend DA first pull, and I'd like to know why that is. If a DA first pull provides no decrease in ND likelihood compared to a safety, then why go with the more difficult to shoot option?

For those of us who strongly prefer TDA's, and have put the time in to the system, the first DA pull is not a more difficult to shoot option, except by accident. When we want to shoot the gun, there is no downside.

Obviously, not everyone has that level of comfort or ability with the DA shot. That doesn't changes the benefits for those of us who do. (insert some American Express add here)

[MistWolf]

If the handgun goes off because of a sympathetic squeeze, it's because the finger is on the trigger. If your finger is on the trigger, it's because you're ready to fire and the safety is disengaged.

If your finger is on the trigger before you're ready to fire, you're a ND waiting to happen

[TicTacticalTimmy]

If the handgun goes off because of a sympathetic squeeze, it's because the finger is on the trigger. If your finger is on the trigger, it's because you're ready to fire and the safety is disengaged.

If your finger is on the trigger before you're ready to fire, you're a ND waiting to happen

In theory and in how we must conduct ourselves 100% of the time on the range you are correct. In practice, see the quote below. Bottom line is even well train shooters can't seem to consistently keep their finger out of the triggerguard when they should.

Not sure I have much to contribute other than some anecdotal stuff. I once saw a video where people who were allegedly well-trained and competent handgun shooters were stressed and then run through a shoot house. The focus of the video was the trigger of each pistol and the trigger finger of each shooter. In many cases, even though the shooter stated that the trigger was not being pressed during certain events, the video suggested that the trigger was indeed being contacted by a finger when the shooter was particularly stressed. Unfortunately I do not have the link to the video and my Google-fu is weak. As such, it is hard to put much stock in my memory.

That being said, if my memories of the video are accurate (might be a small chance), it suggests that shooters, even highly trained ones, have fingers on triggers with no conscious memory of doing so. If that is indeed the case, short SAO/SFA triggers are more prone to NDs per the definition by the OP in this thread.

I had that same video in mind when beginning this thread. We know statistically that shorter, lighter trigger pulls increase the chance of an ND. This holds true, as far as I can tell, for experienced shooters.
If people could be trained to 100% of the time follow the 4 rules under stress, to look when reholstering, etc. Then a short 3lb trigger pull would he the way to go. It appears they cannot and therefore I want additional idiotproofing on my carry gun, while still allowing the gun to be as easy as possible to shoot well.

None of the above should be taken as excusing poor trigger discipline or a failure to follow the four rules. Just an observation of reality and how to adapt to it.

Back on topic. The shoot house is a solid point in favor of DA. If you are holding the gun in front of you, ready for something to jump out at you, the safety would be off.

[GardoneVT]

Analyzing this question properly poses some structural challenges.

First how do we even define what "double action" means? Is it a trigger pull that's heavier on the first shot? Then a Walther P99 and derivatives thereof qualifies as "DA/SA" even though it's a striker fired gun- one that can also be carried "pre-cocked" as one would a Glock or PPQ.

Is a DA pistol considered a DA/SA with a safety -triggered hammer drop? Then CZs,Tangfoglios and similar products are excluded . Or one may allow for convertible safety DA/SA guns in the category,but then we introduce HKs convertible pistols where one can literally carry however they like -see P30-S ,USP V3, and so forth. One can rock it C1, hammer down safety off,or hammer down safety on.

Then there's the trigger pull weight- another sticky variable to consider. Gunny Gestalt holds a DA /SA stock Beretta M9 is safer then a stock Glock 17. But what happens when you put a D spring and Wilson Combat action job on the Beretta,and a NY1 7lb spring in the Glock?Is a Tanfoglio with a 6lb DA pull safer then a Walther P99 with a 10lb striker fired action on first pull?

Then we have the constant-action "lawyer trigger" guns. DAK. LEM. Light LEM. DAO versions of TDA guns like the Smith 5946. Are they safer? Compared to standard striker fired guns? Modified DA? DA with safeties? DA with decocker only?

Just sussing out the trigger definition is a mess, and we haven't even gotten to the human data yet. That's the biggest variable- because you can issue the identical weapon to a crew of identically trained people and see wildly different results in terms of performance. It's not necessarily because someone's a goober either- person A has bigger thumbs then Person B, so issued the same pistol with the same trigger system Person A can reach the levers and buttons easily when Person B must contort their hands in unsafe ways to do the same thing.

Then there's stress factor.The German police researched NDs and came to the conclusion some folks regardless of training WILL trigger check under stress. Then there's plain jane human error. Both gun ninjas and gun noobs have screwed the pooch when it comes to safety. Does the propensity to have an ND correlate to lack of skill? Or is it perhaps the opposite- people comfortable around guns get cognitively lazy and have more safety violations, contravening the mantra of "train more ,less mistakes".

There's a lot of individual data points to lock down before even getting to the bottom line of which system is objectively safer then another.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Gardone,

Let's keep it as simple as possible.
DA=CZ75BD Safety=CZ75B

Assume a typical DA weight of 10lbs or so, and 5lbs SA.

Also assume the gun fits the users hands perfectly

I think the way to do this is to imagine situations that have led to ND's in the past. Would a DA probably have prevented the ND? Would a safety?

The front sight data is a useful starting point for this. As are any other studies that show the relative likelihood of different ND scenarios.

[BehindBlueI's]

Well, you ask "real world" then put a lot of hypothetical restraints on it. Then you want to "imagine". I kept real world data for my county and got roughly 100 NDs that caused death or injury. The short answer is neither would have prevented most of them because they happened during administrative handling or what basically amounts to intentional misuse, aka fucking with it. During actual use was typically getting on the trigger too early or reholstering incidents.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Well, you ask "real world" then put a lot of hypothetical restraints on it. Then you want to "imagine". I kept real world data for my county and got roughly 100 NDs that caused death or injury. The short answer is neither would have prevented most of them because they happened during administrative handling or what basically amounts to intentional misuse, aka fucking with it. During actual use was typically getting on the trigger too early or reholstering incidents.

Fair enough. It seems to me that both administrative and reholstering ND's are easily preventable with either platform, which leaves "getting on the trigger too early". Would you be up for telling a typical "getting on the trigger too early" story?

[BehindBlueI's]

Fair enough. It seems to me that both administrative and reholstering ND's are easily preventable with either platform, which leaves "getting on the trigger too early". Would you be up for telling a typical "getting on the trigger too early" story?

Guy shot himself in the leg drawing and trying to fend off an attack while seated in his SUV. The bullet went through his thigh and into his ankle.

Most "on the trigger to early" NDs just put a round in the dirt between the shooter and the target. Seated or pocket carry is when things get more interesting.

Obstructed trigger during reholstering has led to some bullets in thighs, groins, and at least one fatality last year (groin shot, bled out before he could get to help). A heavier trigger and an external hammer -or- a safety may (or may not) have prevented them but I suspect they would lessen the occurrences.

Honestly, the one hardware solution that would reduce NDs the most is the magazine disconnect. It's staggering how many people drop the magazine and forget to clear the chamber or reverse the steps, then pull the trigger with one in the pipe. It can be the noob with his first gun and a certificate issued to him that day on safe gun handling (seriously) or the old timer security guard who's went decades without an incident and had one moment of carelessness.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Research studies show that if you have your finger on a DA trigger with safety off, the yips that cause an unintentional trigger pull will be strong enough to pull a DA trigger. These are startles, trips, sympathetic hand squeezes and the like. They've been measured at 14 lbs - certainly enough for a DA trigger. Without digging into files, yeah - there are studies that show folks don't know that they are on the trigger when they are.

Also, one interesting nuance about safeties is that if you practice removing them with your draw stroke in classic training, that can go away if you have to draw in a stressful situation in an unusual position. So on the ground, picking up the gun, etc. - not drawing it and your motor program fails. As a similar effect, folks find the red dot on their guns from a classic draw but have problems with it from an unusual position. Read that and heard it from some tests.

I've seen anecdotally the safety glitch. We had a stage where you had to pick up your gun from a box and then shoot. I saw a couple of experienced 1911 guys fumble the safety. They raised the gun and NADA. OH, POOP and then they shot - not the greatest sample but it confirms what I read.

[rdtompki]

NDs are primarily a software problem, not a hardware problem. FWIW I'd vote DAO (LEM).