What I don't know about glass but should...

[Francis]

The London attack has gotten me to thinking about shooting through glass. I'm a fairly new student and have never seriously considered what's involved in shooting through glass in a self defense situation. Now I'm starting to reconsider. It's becoming apparent that using a vehicle to attack people is not a 'one off' event. For those of you who have had the training, what don't I know and what should I know?

Also trying to think through how would a regular Joe on the street be able to distinguish between an attack like in London vs. someone having a medical event and losing control of a vehicle. An attack against LEO by someone trying to flee seems to be a lot more evident and a lethal response justified. Would non-LEO ever be justified in shooting into a vehicle?

[AMC]

There's two questions here: one about shooting through (I assume) laminated windshield glass, and one about recognizing a vehicular assault versus incapacitated driver. As to the first, there are several private sector trainers who cover this type of thing in their courses, some of which are available to non-LE or .Mil students. Auto Glass is tough on bullets, and the angle of a windshield increases the problem....In general, shooting into a car, the round will be deflected downward from it's normal trajectory somewhat.
As to recognizing an attack.....That's gonna be tough as it happens. Both types of events happen suddenly, and will look the same at first.....But an incapacitated driver will generally hit something and stop. If the driver is changing direction to Target folks, or hits something and then backs up and starts again....That is a clue. None of this is to say that the armed citizen should necessarily intervene by shooting at the driver.....There could be a huuuuuuge shit sandwich to bite right there. If you or yours are in danger, by all means do what you gotta do to protect yourself.....Otherwise get the hell out of there. Now if he stops the car and gets out screaming about the Haagen Daz Jihad.....It's Boondocks Saints time.

[Hambo]

About ammo, see DocGKR's handgun ammo list.

Recognizing an attack, that's a problem. In Florida we have people hit by cars and cars driven into buildings on a nearly daily basis. These incidents have nothing to do with jihad. Almost all are unintentional, although one woman recently drove into a cell phone store to express her displeasure with her contract. Most incidents with cars happen so fast that the choices are move or die.

[octagon]

I think AMC and Hambo covered it pretty well but to add maybe look at this way for considering a person having a medical condition compared to jihadi style attack. If it happens and ends quickly you are most likely going to be looking to get out of the way and not engage with rounds into a vehicle. If it ends up being a longer drive through and towards people you may have time to get out of the way and consider engaging what looks more and more like a vehicle attack. Once the vehicle stops if the driver exits quickly or armed you have an obvious answer. If they don't it it may be medical. Regardless of the situation getting out of the way and being prepared to "help" seems to be the answer. I wouldn't be in a rush to get close to any vehicle in a crash once it stops. It may back up or keep moving in an attack or old person confused situation or if it is an attack being farther away offers more options. The driver may not have just an edged weapon to continue the attack. Distance and cover work for shooting the terrorist as well if they have a bomb they are about to detonate.

I myself am not worried about quickly engaging an out of control or what appears so vehicle with gunfire. I plan to get out of the way and assess while preparing to aid the victims and/or engage a threat when it becomes clearer that is what I am facing.

ETA We had an old lady get confused with the pedals and crash through a local Bob Evans one afternoon. The crazy thing is she stayed panicked with foot on the throttle hard and put the car in reverse. She backed out through the restaurant and only stopped when she was high centered on the mound at the edge of the parking lot. I suggested the business install the reinforced poles that smoke shops and pharmacies use to prevent criminals from driving through the wall to do a burglary as this was the second time an old person drove into this Bob Evans.

[JohnO]

It's rare but if you were to encounter a "vintage vehicle" there can be stark differences. Windshields were a lot heavier and thicker before government CAFE standards were forced down the throats of the auto makers.

I have no clue if truck or bus windshields behave like auto glass. One consideration is the trajectory difference between a car and a large truck. Typically you would be shooting down at an auto and up at a truck. Also the slope of the glass on large commercial vehicles is usually much less.

[Rex G]

My thoughts:

First, prioritize getting out of the way of the vehicle, rather than shooting through the windshield. Vehicles are not necessarily stopped by shooting the driver, anyway, and as already indicated in previous posts, an impaired driver, and a dedicated criminal/terrorist, are totally different animals. (I am not sure how the justice system would handle a case of deadly force being used against a dementia patient who was mowing-down pedestrians.)

Side glass is simpler to penetrate, and penetrating metal is best done at a relatively perpendicular angle. It may be possible to differentiate an impaired driver driver, as opposed to a criminal/terrorist, by observing the vehicle as it passes.

[Wayne Dobbs]

My thoughts:

First, prioritize getting out of the way of the vehicle, rather than shooting through the windshield. Vehicles are not necessarily stopped by shooting the driver, anyway, and as already indicated in previous posts, an impaired driver, and a dedicated criminal/terrorist, are totally different animals. (I am not sure how the justice system would handle a case of deadly force being used against a dementia patient who was mowing-down pedestrians.)

Side glass is simpler to penetrate, and penetrating metal is best done at a relatively perpendicular angle. It may be possible to differentiate an impaired driver driver, as opposed to a criminal/terrorist, by observing the vehicle as it passes.

Not really correct on side glass anymore. Since ~2014, the side glass is now laminated like windshield glass. Will make for more interesting vehicle shooting problems all around (no pun intended).

[AMC]

Well, actually in my town it's all a moot point. Our policy prohibits shooting at moving vehicles even if the vehicle is being used as a weapon to mow down pedestrians. We attempted to get the Police Commission to modify this to allow for extreme circumstances....But, no. I predict other jurisdictions will continue to adopt such "best practices" going forward, and these types of attacks will continue to happen. Our commission made vague noises about "not punishing officers for doing the right thing", but no one trusts them. They would throw an officer under that bus running g down peds in a heartbeat.

[Chance]

It might be worth noting that the entire attack at Westminster was over in 82 seconds.

As for shooting at vehicles, Paul Howe's Vehicle Defense video has some excellent information about shooting through glass, at tires, at gas tanks, et cetera.

[El Cid]

Francis,

I recommend taking a class from a vetted instructor. I took Pannone's vehicle tactics/TCCC and will try to take similar courses in the future. Even if you understand the concepts there are some things that really can't be mentally absorbed until you experience it. And if you get an opportunity to shoot into, through, out of a car during training I recommend trying several types of ammo and calibers if that's permitted.