DA/SA Training

[Jason M]

Lemme pose a question, just to frame some context around the doctrine: If there was an ongoing fire-fight, and you were moving from a point of cover being the rear wheel of a car to a better point of cover behind the engine block, would you decock before making that movement?

Just curious - personally, I suspect I'd only decock when assessing, after the engagement is reasonably concluded.

This is good stuff...

I was taught when off target and moving that it was time to decock. Same same with the rifle safety.

[Jared]

This is definitely true, I think I was speaking to the fact that a two-variable trigger is inherently more complicated than a single-variable trigger. Is this difference significant or meaningful? I'd say definitely not in the long run and is certainly outweighed by the benefits the "complexity" of the TDA trigger system brings.

I'm not picking on you personally, so don't take this like that, but the whole "complicated" thing gets tossed around so much in the TDA discussions that I've gotta toss this out there.

A TDA system is not integral calculus. It's not that hard at all. As long as the gun isn't mechanically broken, it does the same thing every string, 1 da shot, followed by SA shots until the gun is decocked, then the process repeats. That's it.

Now, I know this not what you were saying​, but I've seen "complexity" thrown in so many times where people act like the thing randomly decided for you which pull you're going to get and try to turn it into some strange complex equation that just isn't there.

If someone wants to learn a TDA, my advice is this, seek competent training, and then practice. Learn how it works from a good teacher and then do your homework. But I'd tell the same guy the same thing if he said he wanted to master a Glock or a 1911 also.

[Paul Sharp]

Lemme pose a question, just to frame some context around the doctrine: If there was an ongoing fire-fight, and you were moving from a point of cover being the rear wheel of a car to a better point of cover behind the engine block, would you decock before making that movement?

Just curious - personally, I suspect I'd only decock when assessing, after the engagement is reasonably concluded.

This is good stuff...

I would because that's what I was trained to do, just like I would on-safe with an AR or 1911.

If I think about it a little deeper though, the last time we shot together I ran a 92. You set up some movement stages and I don't recall decocking before moving from point A to point B? I've shot 1911/2011's in matches and I know with those pistols I always on-safe when I start to move, but I don't recall doing that with the 92 before rolling out to the next box or barricade during our practice. I'm racking my brain trying to remember, I know in dry fire I do because it's such a distinct movement to decock with the support side hand as the hand comes off the gun prior to moving.

[Matt O]

I'm not picking on you personally, so don't take this like that, but the whole "complicated" thing gets tossed around so much in the TDA discussions that I've gotta toss this out there.

A TDA system is not integral calculus. It's not that hard at all. As long as the gun isn't mechanically broken, it does the same thing every string, 1 da shot, followed by SA shots until the gun is decocked, then the process repeats. That's it.

Now, I know this not what you were saying​, but I've seen "complexity" thrown in so many times where people act like the thing randomly decided for you which pull you're going to get and try to turn it into some strange complex equation that just isn't there.

If someone wants to learn a TDA, my advice is this, seek competent training, and then practice. Learn how it works from a good teacher and then do your homework. But I'd tell the same guy the same thing if he said he wanted to master a Glock or a 1911 also.

Did you skip the last several pages of discussion and just jump to a conclusion based on this one post?

[45dotACP]

The DA in the HK P30 I dry fired was pretty bad, but I didn't shoot it so who knows. My CZ P-07 doesn't have a butter smooth trigger, but when I am actually shooting it, things go where I want them.

Tbh, when I ran through some rounds on a P30 I wasn't totally amazeballs blown away by the trigger like with a tuned CZ shadow...But it was not the "dragging a brick across gravel" that I was told by various gun fora...

Then again, I shoot mostly Glocks, and I shoot best when I let the trigger all the way forward. Not what I'd call a buttery smooth trigger.

I've yet to find a striker fired gun I can shoot as accurately as my Beretta 92 with a D spring. The first DA shot is handled by just gripping tight and watching the sight until it lifts. Sigs are cool too for a decent stock DA trigger. I also think they might be a little simpler to decock for me because the reach is shorter.

I very much doubt the majority of people who have been in a shooting with a TDA pistol decocked before moving (if they moved) but that's pure unverified speculation.

[Jared]

Did you skip the last several pages of discussion and just jump to a conclusion based on this one post?

No, although I did read it backwards, started at last page and worked forward. I wasn't necessarily venting at you in particular or PF in general, just something I've seen again and again on gun fora when TDA systems come up and the token "must not be one tiny bit more complex than striker pistol X" guy pops in with the "too complicated" bit. So I was shaking my fist at the sky from past experience I guess.

On a related note, one reason I stayed at PF was because good discussion could be had about TDA guns versus the stuff I was used to seeing elsewhere.

[JAD]

much doubt the majority of people who have been in a shooting with a TDA pistol decocked before moving (if they moved) but that's pure unverified speculation.

That's more of an argument for DAO/LEM than against decocking on dismount. I think the DA/SA transition is secondary; I think the idea that people can't be taught to remember to decock is a more salient concern.

I don't agree with it, though. I'm a moron, and I safe when dismounting 100% of the time, unconsciously. I'm very confident that with a similar amount of reps I could learn to decock on dismount.

[45dotACP]

That's more of an argument for DAO/LEM than against decocking on dismount. I think the DA/SA transition is secondary; I think the idea that people can't be taught to remember to decock is a more salient concern.

I don't agree with it, though. I'm a moron, and I safe when dismounting 100% of the time, unconsciously. I'm very confident that with a similar amount of reps I could learn to decock on dismount.

True...But you do fall into the category of "enthusiast". I meant more as a blanket statement of all people who have been in shootings....Many of whom are probably not enthusiasts. And yeah it's definitely an argument for a DAO trigger of some type...Though I don't like them much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that with training and reps you can ingrain that habit...And I think it's probably worthwhile....But then you can also ingrain the habit of keeping the trigger finger on the frame but the "my finger is my safety" is generally laughed at by many competent shooters and instructors.

[JAD]

I don't disagree, which is why I very much like what Bolke wrote a long time ago about the LEM.

I don't know about you guys, but I fall down sometimes.

[SLG]

I don't know about you guys, but I fall down sometimes.

Sorry. Have you tried medication? Or a helmet? :-)