Take up or not take up trigger slack, or should I pause before I reach the wall?

[45dotACP]

I've found that I shoot glocks far better when I press the trigger in one continuous motion, like working a double action revolver trigger. "Pin and reset" tends to lead me to slap the trigger too much. Plus, when I reset the trigger in recoil I don't take up the slack on the next trigger press, no matter the distance.

Also to note: When I shoot a competition, I don't cautiously take up slack, no matter the distance. I just don't. Call it fake stress inoculation, but shooting competition has helped me to realize what I do and don't do with my gun under pressure, and it's not pin and reset.

[Leroy]

The only thing that changes is what I look for to indicate I'm on target. A 5 yard (or less) target gets either a very crude flash sight picture or even just a slide profile in front of the target. At 50 yards I need a much more precise picture. That quality of sight picture needed will also affect how long it takes me to get a first shot off and follow up shots. None of that affects how quickly the trigger moves.

If I'm jerking the gun I need a better grip, better contact spot with the trigger or better trigger control in general. Slowing the trigger speed down will allow me (maybe) to correct for those deficiencies and make the shot but correcting those deficiencies is better.

I'm an Appleseed shoot boss and run USPSA matches where I inevitably end up teaching new competitors in handgunnery and do some freelancing for things like ROTC handgun familiarization. For all of those I teach the fast stroke trigger press and everyone (rifle shooters, new USPSA competitors and novices) sees their groups shrink when they do it whether shooting a Glock, DA Beretta 92 or AR. The smallest target in Appleseed is a postage stamp size square at 25 yards (4 MOA) to give some idea of the level of precision we teach.

If a shooter slows down their trigger speed they inevitably start anticipating when the shot will break and end up holding their breath as they think "Here comes the shot...almost there...hold your breath...get the sights back on target...BANG!" That mental discussion can take anywhere from 1 second to 5 seconds but is plenty of time to screw up the shot.

The original question was whether the trigger slack is taken out then the shot is fired after a pause. My answer is not normally unless you're shooting crazy precise stuff. Trigger speed is a related part of that that I see a lot of folks hurt their accuracy potential with by going too slow. Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly. You should be able to do it with an empty case balanced on your front sight. I can usually get 2 or 3 repetitions on a DA trigger before the case vibrates off the front sight from the hammer dropping.

Cool man, this technique never worked for me, but I deffinitely agree with never pausing the press. Just to clarify, the difference in time pressing the trigger between a 5 yard target and say a 25 yard target would be like .1 to .3 seconds depending on variables. It is a small time difference that allows for slight corrections during the press. The lighter the trigger the less difference.

[randyflycaster]

Thanks for the help. What is the difference between staging the trigger and prepping the trigger?
Randy

[Jay Cunningham]

Prepping the trigger is beginning to work the trigger at the earliest point in the presentation and continuing through to breaking the shot.

Staging is "taking the slack out" of the trigger, then stopping or pausing then resuming the trigger manipulation.

[taadski]

I define "prepping" as having the reset completed and the slack taken out of the system such that one CAN immediately row through the press when the sights come to rest or settle enough to do so. Think Bruce Gray's "peeling the onion" drill.

I think of "staging" as beginning said press in earnest, and then stopping on the way to make final refinements before breaking the shot. As opposed to rowing straight through in one motion.

[JustOneGun]

Prepping the trigger is beginning to work the trigger at the earliest point in the presentation and continuing through to breaking the shot.

Staging is "taking the slack out" of the trigger, then stopping or pausing then resuming the trigger manipulation.

I'm not sure if I agree with those definitions. For Glocks most people I know would reverse them. If you are talking a TDA sure. It's pretty hard to stage the trigger repeatedly under stress and I've never met anyone who wants to train people to do that in self defense. I've never heard anyone define taking the slack out of the trigger on a Glock as staging the trigger. Most would disagree with your staging the trigger as being bad in, "Taking the slack out of a Glock." That is definitely different than staging a double action and then finishing after stopping. Most would define that as bad.

[John Hearne]

There's probably a few more factors to consider. First, there's what is best for someone learning and what's best for someone who can already shoot well. A big variable is whether the person can manipulate the trigger without a sympathetic squeeze from the other fingers that's large enough to disturb the sights. This can be accomplished by deliberately practicing the movement of the trigger finger in isolation or by having enough grip strength (especially in the non-dominant hand) to overcome the sympathetic squeeze. Can't prove it to scientific standards but I'd bet that advanced shooters have done enough work to have a lot more independent movement of the trigger finger than less skilled shooters. When you combine that trigger finger isolation with a lot of grip strength then the range of shooting problems over which they can "slap" the trigger is pretty broad.

Personally, I have to run the trigger differently for the problem I'm trying to solve. I can run the trigger straight back in a continuous fashion for a full A zone or -0 within 7 yards or so. As the difficulty increases I will get to the wall as quick as I humanly can and then move through the wall at the speed I need to hit. Try as I might, I have not been able to shoot "The Test" to standard if I press straight through. If I have even the slightest pause before pressing through the wall I can shoot it fine and fairly quickly. My shooting volume is down dramatically with a wife in college and a new baby. I suspect that with regular live and dry practice I could pull continuously and hit on "The Test" but I don't have the resources, mostly time, to make that happen right now. I also err towards the accuracy side of the accuracy/speed equation.

For a new shooter, I really encourage them to work to the wall as quickly as possible and then break the wall at the speed to make the hit. When they're really new, they really have to ease through the wall to hit. There are exceptions, I've got one guy who is a serious weight lifter and his grip strength allows him to shoot remarkably well while using a crossed thumbs grip.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm not sure if I agree with those definitions. For Glocks most people I know would reverse them. If you are talking a TDA sure. It's pretty hard to stage the trigger repeatedly under stress and I've never met anyone who wants to train people to do that in self defense. I've never heard anyone define taking the slack out of the trigger on a Glock as staging the trigger. Most would disagree with your staging the trigger as being bad in, "Taking the slack out of a Glock." That is definitely different than staging a double action and then finishing after stopping. Most would define that as bad.

It's all good - we simply run into the issue of language, definitions, and semantics. The best we can do is try to be as descriptive as we can, I suppose.

Suffice to say, IMO a certain decisiveness needs to be part of the trigger press on the index draw or in the prep during the pressout. Otherwise it turns into staging, which is a precursor to jerking/snatching the trigger.

[SLG]

The only thing that changes is what I look for to indicate I'm on target. A 5 yard (or less) target gets either a very crude flash sight picture or even just a slide profile in front of the target. At 50 yards I need a much more precise picture. That quality of sight picture needed will also affect how long it takes me to get a first shot off and follow up shots. None of that affects how quickly the trigger moves.

If I'm jerking the gun I need a better grip, better contact spot with the trigger or better trigger control in general. Slowing the trigger speed down will allow me (maybe) to correct for those deficiencies and make the shot but correcting those deficiencies is better.

I'm an Appleseed shoot boss and run USPSA matches where I inevitably end up teaching new competitors in handgunnery and do some freelancing for things like ROTC handgun familiarization. For all of those I teach the fast stroke trigger press and everyone (rifle shooters, new USPSA competitors and novices) sees their groups shrink when they do it whether shooting a Glock, DA Beretta 92 or AR. The smallest target in Appleseed is a postage stamp size square at 25 yards (4 MOA) to give some idea of the level of precision we teach.

If a shooter slows down their trigger speed they inevitably start anticipating when the shot will break and end up holding their breath as they think "Here comes the shot...almost there...hold your breath...get the sights back on target...BANG!" That mental discussion can take anywhere from 1 second to 5 seconds but is plenty of time to screw up the shot.

The original question was whether the trigger slack is taken out then the shot is fired after a pause. My answer is not normally unless you're shooting crazy precise stuff. Trigger speed is a related part of that that I see a lot of folks hurt their accuracy potential with by going too slow. Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly. You should be able to do it with an empty case balanced on your front sight. I can usually get 2 or 3 repetitions on a DA trigger before the case vibrates off the front sight from the hammer dropping.

What's your normal Appleseed score? What's your best?

What group size can you shoot on demand at 25 and 50 and 100 with a handgun?

[LSW]

To pause before the break to me takes time, and I want to get the shot off as quickly as possible. I find that this sort of pause doesn't really help my accuracy, unless I'm shooting rested type groups in super slow fire. A new pistol I picked up recently has a bit of a false break just before the shot fires. I find myself inadvertantly pausing there sometimes. The one thing it has allowed me to do is catch myself flinching/pushing a bit when I thought the shot was supposed to fire. Maybe that's something a pause could prevent. I'm just a C class/sharpshooter type so take my word with a graint of salt, haha.

I think a lot depends on the type of trigger you're shooting too. On a glock/m&p type service pistol I think you should take up the initial slack as soon as the gun is pointed downrange, not necessarily wait until the sights are lined up perfectly on the A zone.