Flinch? Or compensating/anticipating recoil? I really would appreciate some advice.

[SC_Dave]

I'm not sure which to call it or maybe it's all the same thing IDK.

I had my son load 4 15 round mags. I asked him to put 2-4 snap caps in each. The result was stark. I wanted to video it but my DA forgot to bring the tripod. But suffice it to say the flinch was very noticeable on 9 of the 10 snap caps. 1 wasn't so bad. I have dry fired at night till my hands are sore. I'm as smooth as can be dry firing witnessed by the red dot on my RMR. So why doesn't this translate to live fire?

To my point. What do I do about it? I have read about and tried 10 different things but obviously it has not helped. I would really appreciate some input.

Thanks in advance for trying to help me.
SCD

[Luke]

for me, it depends on what kind of shooting I'm doing. Uspsa head shot at 25 yards, shouldn't see any movement when I hit a snap cap.

10 yard hoser target in gonna try and blast quickly, you'll probably see me almost throw the gun forward if it doesn't go bang on the second shot.


This is a good drill for finding out why you can't accomplish the first scenario, not the second. What kind of issues are you having.

[Gio]

I just posted this in another thread:

Grip force and follow through are everything when it comes to resetting the sights and gun back to where it was before the shot broke. If I stick a dummy round randomly in a magazine and run bill drills or some other kind of speed drill like this, you will see a massive push forward and down that would look like a flinch, but it's actually a post-ignition push to counter recoil. I've found this is something shooters develop subconsciously over time. As a side note, this is one reason ball and dummy drills are more of a new/struggling shooter drill and don't help advanced shooters. In fact, instructors that aren't familiar with the post ignition push can mis-diagnose advanced shooters as having a flinch.

The way to tell if it's post ignition push vs. a flinch is to see where the rounds are going. Shoot at a small target at about 5-7 yards like a 2" dot. If you are hitting the dot consistently, you're not flinching.

Contrary to what Luke recommended above, there shouldn't be a difference in how you recover from recoil on a 25 yd head shot vs. a 3 yd hoser target for any kind of action shooting. You should be fighting to get your sight picture reset as fast as possible in either scenario.

Now, if you are shooting a bullseye course, where you have basically unlimited time to shoot 10 rounds and you are going to only fire one shot and then rest or return to the holster before the next shot, you should be much more relaxed and focus on a smooth/constant trigger press and just let the gun recoil without trying to chase it or force it back down.

[Luke]

@Gio I agree, that was more of a slow fire bulls eye type shooting, not during a match. Should have used your analogy but bullseye shooting is so lame I try not to even type it


But in a match context there still will be a different amount of force used for 2 25 yard head shots and a quick hose with .11 split

[SC_Dave]

for me, it depends on what kind of shooting I'm doing. Uspsa head shot at 25 yards, shouldn't see any movement when I hit a snap cap.

10 yard hoser target in gonna try and blast quickly, you'll probably see me almost throw the gun forward if it doesn't go bang on the second shot.


This is a good drill for finding out why you can't accomplish the first scenario, not the second. What kind of issues are you having.

I just posted this in another thread:



The way to tell if it's post ignition push vs. a flinch is to see where the rounds are going. Shoot at a small target at about 5-7 yards like a 2" dot. If you are hitting the dot consistently, you're not flinching.

Contrary to what Luke recommended above, there shouldn't be a difference in how you recover from recoil on a 25 yd head shot vs. a 3 yd hoser target for any kind of action shooting. You should be fighting to get your sight picture reset as fast as possible in either scenario.

Now, if you are shooting a bullseye course, where you have basically unlimited time to shoot 10 rounds and you are going to only fire one shot and then rest or return to the holster before the next shot, you should be much more relaxed and focus on a smooth/constant trigger press and just let the gun recoil without trying to chase it or force it back down.

Thanks guys. A little more info. Their are so many things that transfer from competition shooting to self protection (some say tactical but I have grown to hate that word) and vice-versa.
I don't shoot competition but I have not ruled it out at a local novice level in the future. So most of my shooting is practice for self protection that I hope is never needed.

From 7 yards in as you know is very forgiving of movement. In fact IMO 5 yards and in sights aren't really necessary to hit center mass though their are exceptions. When I noticed my downward dip of the pistol when breaking the trigger on a snap cap was the scenario Gio mentioned in his last paragraph. I was shooting a B8 at 15 yds.

Edit: for additional info. This is going to sound like I am experienced, I am not so take it for diagnostic info. I have been shooting off and on since my teens, I'm 61. I have gotten more serious in the past year or so. Also I'm shooting at an indoor range, it's all I have right now. Knowing that it's louder indoors I tried doubling up my ear pro. Plugs under muffs thinking the noise level was causing some of this. Didn't hurt but I can't tell it helped either.

Holes on the left most side are from ripping the B8 out of a notebook.

[Mitch]

Are you right handed?


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[SC_Dave]

Are you right handed?


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Yes I am.

[Mitch]

Without seeing you shoot it's impossible to tell, but it's possible rather than flinching you could be snatching the trigger.

Try this. Shoot at the same distance with only two goals, a smooth trigger press and sight alignment. The front sight should not move relative to the rear. It's going to wobble inside the bullseye, but that's fine. Don't try to time your trigger press with the front sight crossing the bullseye. As long as the front and rear sight are lined up, pointing in the black, and you have a smooth trigger press you'll get a good hit. But if your front sight starts moving relative to the rear sight your misses will be more dramatic.

EDIT: Just saw you're using an RMR. I've never shot with one of those. You can try the above with a iron sighted pistol, or with an RMR with the big disclaimer that I've never shot one and don't know you or your experience. Basically don't try to time the bullseye, accept some wobble inside the black.


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[JohnO]

I'm going to offer a few videos that you should watch. You should be able to get some helpful info from these that will help you better understand what you are doing.




Pay attention to Mike's explanation of a flinch being a timing issue in the 2nd part.

[BJXDS]

There have been some very good replies. I think you need to find what you are really doing i.e. Bad trigger pull or anticipating/clinching. TRIGGER PULL IS EVERYTHING! If you are flinching and I still do it sometimes especially when shooting 44 mag even though I hate to admit it.

Drill are helpful but I think you have to shoot your way out of it