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Thread: 3 o'clock concealment draws from untucked shirt par times?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Only you can know. It just depends on what you want out of idpa. If the game is the highest priority then definitely get the vest and do everything you can that's proper to post your highest score. If your highest priority is the way you feel about shooting your carry rig in competition then keep going.
    The answer. Personally, I'd stick with how I carry.
    #RESIST

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Just tried this. 3 seconds is more than enough to hit a 3x5 card at 7 yards.
    2 seconds is also doable.
    #RESIST

  3. #33
    I'm a nobody compared with the folks in this thread. But here's what I think about:

    Economy of movement. I want to get something from every movement I make in my draw. If I'm doing something, it needs to add something. When I started keeping a record of my training here on PF, I just whipped the pistol out with all the speed my hands could muster, pointed it at an index card and yanked the trigger till it clicked. That has value to build speed... but it has to be focused into form.

    I would try standing straight up like you would if you were having a conversation with a friend. Then see how you can get your pistol out and on target with your arms moving as little as possible. Don't use a timer. Actually look down and watch yourself draw and see if you could move your arms less somehow. By keeping an elbow tighter, or by moving straighter, or arcing different. Once you've found the LEAST movement way to do it, try some timer reps. If it isn't consistent then look at why and you may need to add steps like using your strong hand to clear a cover. Or moving up your chest more before pushing outward.

    Gio has an impressive draw from strong side. But watch his video, you'll struggle to spot wasted movement. And what does look like it might be extra (his leg bob) actually helps bring his pistol to his hand faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    snip

    snip
    Here is me working a strong side draw to sight picture (no trigger break) with a .9 draw time. Jump to 1:38. The par time comes from a Ben Steoger par time on his Single Target Gun Handling dry fire routine. It's string 2. This is back in December, so I have changed to AWIB now but the same idea applies. And this does not translate to the same times for me live fire. Hope this somehow helps.


    -Cory
    Last edited by Cory; 03-01-2017 at 09:27 AM. Reason: fixed quote and youtube link

  4. #34
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    The answer. Personally, I'd stick with how I carry.
    I invest the money I would have spent on gaming gear in obsolete weapons.
    Ignore Alien Orders

  5. #35
    Follow through on every shot. Get that extra sight picture before you prepare to holster. Then come back to a ready position and clear garment before reholstering. The harder the break, the safer you and everyone else will be.

    I wholeheartedly agree on shooting more upright. IMO, you should be getting any lean forward only from slight hip and knee relaxation. The higher your eyes are the more you get to see generally.

    I always ran a little slower than I could be from the hip because of always clearing garments 2-handed. If I stuck w it longer I probably could have closed that gap and I'm sure you can too.

    I would like to see you work on an indexing of your gun hand during the clear where you are assisting/assuring the clear with your thumb directly moving over the gun until it can pass over the tang and you can move into a grip. Basically using both hands to start clearing and breaking the firing hand off to the gun just after the garment is over it if that makes sense.


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  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    I invest the money I would have spent on gaming gear in obsolete weapons.
    I wish you could have heard Todd's take on the 1911 and AIWB, you would have liked it . He certainly didn't feel that it was obsolete. Especially for AIWB.
    #RESIST

  7. #37
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I wish you could have heard Todd's take on the 1911 and AIWB, you would have liked it . He certainly didn't feel that it was obsolete. Especially for AIWB.
    He shared enough on the forum, I think. "Obsolete" is harsh, but the capacity thing is hard to argue with. If I can shoot a high cap as well as the 1911, which I think is at least nearly true of the G17 for me, it's a little foolish to carry a single stack.

    Fortunately I find LWCs a *lot* easier to carry than Glocks, and I have a bunch of them, so it excuses me a little. But just a little.

    My point was, while I certainly endorse the idea that one should be trying to win if one is playing a game, for me if I were to find time to return to competition I would accept the limitations of my carry equipment (saving mag pouches) and do my best. For me, that's because if I was really trying to win the game, I would be devoting a significant amount of my practice time to the game setup, and at some point that would get detrimental.

    For me, though, the big trying-to-win obstacle is more a matter of the physical actions one has to take to be competitive -- port address, a certain balance of accuracy and speed. For more gifted people I'm sure it's not a problem, but if my dumb ass drills jamming my gun past cover, I will do so when it's not such a good idea.

    A man's got to know his limitations.

  8. #38
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    He shared enough on the forum, I think. "Obsolete" is harsh, but the capacity thing is hard to argue with. If I can shoot a high cap as well as the 1911, which I think is at least nearly true of the G17 for me, it's a little foolish to carry a single stack.

    Fortunately I find LWCs a *lot* easier to carry than Glocks, and I have a bunch of them, so it excuses me a little. But just a little.

    My point was, while I certainly endorse the idea that one should be trying to win if one is playing a game, for me if I were to find time to return to competition I would accept the limitations of my carry equipment (saving mag pouches) and do my best. For me, that's because if I was really trying to win the game, I would be devoting a significant amount of my practice time to the game setup, and at some point that would get detrimental.

    For me, though, the big trying-to-win obstacle is more a matter of the physical actions one has to take to be competitive -- port address, a certain balance of accuracy and speed. For more gifted people I'm sure it's not a problem, but if my dumb ass drills jamming my gun past cover, I will do so when it's not such a good idea.

    A man's got to know his limitations.
    JAD I think you hit on a number of important things there.

    There are several main ways to reconcile a core defensive interest with participation in a competition in order to benefit from what it has to offer.

    At one extreme is someone not just competing with their carry/duty gear, but addressing the stage in what they believe to be a tactically-correct manner. This is going to take them completely out of contention for a decent score because they are spending so much time working their way through the stage. I don't begrudge anyone this, but it is not the route I would go because I think it loses one of the biggest benefits of competition, which is the pressure and mental management attached to trying to win. There are still limitations too - a lot of times, the best tactic is simply not going to be something you can really do in the competitive venue. A shooter might not get very far if every time the RO hit the timer, the shooter drew while running uprange to the corner of the bay and held the hard corner against all the threats in the bay, while simulating calling 911. I don't think this approach completely lacks any value, I just think it loses a lot of the available value.

    Next is what I do - like you JAD, I just don't have any real motivation to practice extensively with gear I'm not going to carry. Use carry gear, but play the game the way the game is played, try to post the best score and try to win. I am not practicing tactics at competition and I save that for tactical training. I use the gear I want to use, which isn't the smartest, but otherwise play the game and try to post the best score I can. The big benefit is that one can legitimately be IN the competition, with all the pressure and mental stuff that brings.

    Then there is the normal method of shooting competition gear in competition and staying familiar with carry gear outside of competition. I have no doubt that skill will transfer, especially if the competition gear is pretty similar to the carry gear.

    I think those are the three big ways to slice it, and they all have some kind of value.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    JAD I think you hit on a number of important things there.At one extreme is someone not just competing with their carry/duty gear, but addressing the stage in what they believe to be a tactically-correct manner. This is going to take them completely out of contention for a decent score because they are spending so much time working their way through the stage. I don't begrudge anyone this, but it is not the route I would go because I think it loses one of the biggest benefits of competition, which is the pressure and mental management attached to trying to win. There are still limitations too - a lot of times, the best tactic is simply not going to be something you can really do in the competitive venue. A shooter might not get very far if every time the RO hit the timer, the shooter drew while running uprange to the corner of the bay and held the hard corner against all the threats in the bay, while simulating calling 911. I don't think this approach completely lacks any value, I just think it loses a lot of the available value.
    This should be highlighted. One of the biggest benefits of shooting competition is the performance under pressure. I see a lot of people that post videos to social media of themselves pulling off seemingly world class feats like 1 second headshots at 25 yds, 2.5 second plate racks, etc. Then I see them shoot at a C to B class level at a match. Pressure and on demand performance are real things.

    I personally fall into the category of using competition gear (inner/outer belt, production legal holster/mag pouches) in competition. I also carry a gun professionally in both plain clothes and overt/tactical assignments. I compete with a G34 or 35 with fiber optic sights and a slightly lighter trigger, while my carry guns are stock glocks with HD sights. At least 75% of my practice is with my competition gear. This has had no negative effects on my performance with my carry guns. In fact, I shoot them to the same level I shoot my competition guns, and the hand speed and visual discipline that I've developed from training for competition has improved my performance across the board. I've never found myself reaching for my competition gear when I'm drawing from either an open retention holster or strong side IWB. I seem to get in the correct "mental mode" depending on what situation I'm in, with no ill effects or negative crossover from one to another.
    Last edited by Gio; 03-03-2017 at 09:56 PM.

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