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Thread: PD Developments and Revelations from a Qual Day

  1. #11
    The change to M&P2.0 deal sounds pretty darn good. You must have a good sized dept. When we switched from Sig 226/40 to Glock 22s were paid $100 to swap out guns,holsters and mag pouches. It was easily passed by the PD and city council and we got better gear going to Safariland holsters and mag pouches from leather Gould and Goodrich holsters and leather mag pouches that covered 90% of the magazine. This is back in the mid 90s.

    We also had the issue of lack of scanning or even more "interesting" the tactical speed neck stretch where guys would look and not see. We rectified that by requiring the scan to qualify regardless of shots on target or time and enforced it by ROs holding a blue or red gun or rubber knife in the center of their chest after firing a stage began. We would randomly ask officers what type and color simulated weapon was the range officer behind them or near them holding. If they got it wrong they were considered DQed and had to shoot the course again. Guys that hate shooting got good at scanning more thoroughly but we also had a couple guys that liked shooting try and play it that they didn't know to get more trigger time. They were also the ones that didn't need reminding to scan properly.

    Does your agency not have a policy to investigate NDs? It was in our G.O.s and would result in discipline in most cases and always if it was a Dept weapon or anything was damaged. The file cabinet in our cleaning room was a reprimand for the RO and the new recruit who shortly after resigned. There was a guy that had a ND of sorts when a round discharged as he cleared the chamber with his hand over the ejection port(Sig 226/9mm) in his living room while he was off duty. He had minor cuts to the hand from the case failure. It was investigated and believed to be when the primer was hit by the ejector. He still got a written warning.

    Our dept didn't put much effort and money in to firearms training all the time I was there but they did take safety pretty seriously at least.

  2. #12
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    Police firearms instructors who don't have answers, a thin knowledge base, and who trade in rumors....Of course different rumors for every one you talk to. Yeah, must be Friday.

  3. #13
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    As for the topics at hand....Poor to no training, twice annual or once annual quals, poorly trained instructors, bad range design, poor equipment choices.....It's a profession-wide problem. And it's also the source of many of our problems with questionable OIS's and bad tactical decisions. I'm at the point where I will flat out tell command level people who complain about poor officer performance in these areas, "What are you doing to fix it? What have you tried? Either train people thoroughly to begin with, and have proper sustainment training, or STFU about it. You can't have it both ways!" The reality is that any changes will be small and entirely local (especially now when proficiency in use of force is the LAST thing they want to develop in cops). It will only be accomplished with the right persons in place to make the changes. For most agencies, proficiency and competence are not the goal....."qualification" is.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Wayne is correct--there have been a lot of Win QC issues recently, but we not seen any HST problems.

    The lead free primers can be very hard on Glock breach faces and strikers.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LockedBreech View Post
    I am a bit surprised to hear about that many G21G4 issues, I thought the G4 Glocks were finally pretty much sorted except for BTF in 9mm. Had been eyeballing a cheap one on Recoil Gunworks and will probably back off and read more now.

    Do you think it likely the M2.0 would be adopted when it's still so new and issues haven't been shaken out yet? It makes money sense but that seems soon to hop on a brand new pistol.
    I carried a gen3 g21 with the ambi mag release and 1913 rail. That thing was extremely accurate, but weighed like a brick in my pants. I was happy to see it go to back to my 17.

    Likely? No. We are an old Dept with old top brass who don't want or like change. Too much change to quickly will fuck everything up pretty quickly. One of the biggest issues was the transition period...So we get them, then what? Do we need to go through a week long course? Two day? Most will need a two day. Some will need a four week. Also the issue if buying our duty guns back. They'd also have to rewrite the whole policy on duty guns as how it's setup now there are a lot of variables that won't be covered by a straight transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poconnor View Post
    Nothing surprises me any more as far as police equipment choices, training or skill. Too often departments change because somebody in charge wants something new or different. Often they choose a shiny bobble that they are too cheap to buy themselves. Personally I want simple , reliable, durable and relatively affordable. Which means not expensive or cheap because that's what you want to spend. It has to work 24/7 100 percent. It's hard to tell the new hires- it's the Indian , not the arrow
    I totally agree, but PDs don't work that way, and while I really like my 17, it's still difficult to explain to co-workers about this whole thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    The change to M&P2.0 deal sounds pretty darn good. You must have a good sized dept. When we switched from Sig 226/40 to Glock 22s were paid $100 to swap out guns,holsters and mag pouches. It was easily passed by the PD and city council and we got better gear going to Safariland holsters and mag pouches from leather Gould and Goodrich holsters and leather mag pouches that covered 90% of the magazine. This is back in the mid 90s.

    We also had the issue of lack of scanning or even more "interesting" the tactical speed neck stretch where guys would look and not see. We rectified that by requiring the scan to qualify regardless of shots on target or time and enforced it by ROs holding a blue or red gun or rubber knife in the center of their chest after firing a stage began. We would randomly ask officers what type and color simulated weapon was the range officer behind them or near them holding. If they got it wrong they were considered DQed and had to shoot the course again. Guys that hate shooting got good at scanning more thoroughly but we also had a couple guys that liked shooting try and play it that they didn't know to get more trigger time. They were also the ones that didn't need reminding to scan properly.

    Does your agency not have a policy to investigate NDs? It was in our G.O.s and would result in discipline in most cases and always if it was a Dept weapon or anything was damaged. The file cabinet in our cleaning room was a reprimand for the RO and the new recruit who shortly after resigned. There was a guy that had a ND of sorts when a round discharged as he cleared the chamber with his hand over the ejection port(Sig 226/9mm) in his living room while he was off duty. He had minor cuts to the hand from the case failure. It was investigated and believed to be when the primer was hit by the ejector. He still got a written warning.

    Our dept didn't put much effort and money in to firearms training all the time I was there but they did take safety pretty seriously at least.
    One of the top ten biggest in the country. A transition to a new gun like that is a big marketing point for some companies.

    Re scanning; they tried that for about six months. Until some top brass boss didn't scan and he was told he had to shoot he course again, he laughed and left. That was the end of that.

    Re NDs; on the range there is no investigation, it's just a "stop that shit" type of back of the head slap. Actual NDs are investigated but cleared if there is just property damage and no injuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    As for the topics at hand....Poor to no training, twice annual or once annual quals, poorly trained instructors, bad range design, poor equipment choices.....It's a profession-wide problem. And it's also the source of many of our problems with questionable OIS's and bad tactical decisions. I'm at the point where I will flat out tell command level people who complain about poor officer performance in these areas, "What are you doing to fix it? What have you tried? Either train people thoroughly to begin with, and have proper sustainment training, or STFU about it. You can't have it both ways!" The reality is that any changes will be small and entirely local (especially now when proficiency in use of force is the LAST thing they want to develop in cops). It will only be accomplished with the right persons in place to make the changes. For most agencies, proficiency and competence are not the goal....."qualification" is.
    Tell me about it. I interviewed at our FYI a few years ago, was told flat out that I was extremely overqualified and because of that I won't be coming to there. They don't want people who know what they are going, they want yes men. A co-worker went there as an instructor, literally the worst shot I've ever seen on the job. But now he's got FTU on his resume...Goes to show you it's not who you know...

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Wayne is correct--there have been a lot of Win QC issues recently, but we not seen any HST problems.

    The lead free primers can be very hard on Glock breach faces and strikers.
    Do you have documentation on this? Preferably something I can be pass up the chain?
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  6. #16
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    I've seen a bunch of problems with Winchester practice ammo. We're still having problems with our remaining Winchester practice ammo. I found one split case on one of my issued duty RA9T rounds several years ago but otherwise have had 100% success and it has a good reputation with my department. That said, I may have been part of my department's testing and I am quite happy we now issue HST.

  7. #17
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Glad I read this - I have a few boxes of RA9T that I was considering cycling into my carry mags. Just bought more 147gr HST instead - will put the Winchester downrange.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter ST911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Tell me about it. I interviewed at our FYI a few years ago, was told flat out that I was extremely overqualified and because of that I won't be coming to there. They don't want people who know what they are going, they want yes men. A co-worker went there as an instructor, literally the worst shot I've ever seen on the job. But now he's got FTU on his resume...Goes to show you it's not who you know...?
    Can you read powerpoint slides to students in the correct order?
    Can you chew tobacco or seeds?
    Can you stand behind officers and scream "front sight!"
    Can you begin every third sentence with "In combat..."
    Can you count to fifty? (Doing 10-15 at a time is a reasonable accommodation.)
    Can you sign your name to pre-printed forms?
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  9. #19
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    When it comes to getting a preferred assignment, sometimes skill and qualification of the position takes a back seat to politics. And also sometimes the concept of being too qualified intimidates the supervision within the assignment. Don't want to challenge the, "Not Invented Here Syndrome". If they have been teaching that the sky is pink with purple poke a dots for years, can't have the new guy undermine and embarrass us by saying that the sky is blue.

    Over the last 24 years, I've been at the range for training when a shotgun ND occurred behind the line of students waiting their turn to conduct a drill. I've seen loaded and cocked S&W 5906's pointed at other officers during scenarios involving bailing form a police car. Yes it's easy to point to these incidents and talk about the students who arrive for training on the short bus. But the Range Staff really needs to have enough people in the appropriate locations to mitigate the possibility for stupid people doing stupid things.

    I can say that at my agency, things have gotten a lot better. Part of this is due to the state regulating agency (OPOTA) mandating how many instructors on the line per student. And part of this is new mindset that came with new staff at the Firearms Training Unit.

    As for QC issues with ammunition, we've seen it with Winchester training ammunition. So far, our duty loading, RA9T, has been ok.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    As for the topics at hand....Poor to no training, twice annual or once annual quals, poorly trained instructors, bad range design, poor equipment choices.....It's a profession-wide problem.
    When the brass reads state minimum LE training, it says minimum, but what they read is the most I have to do/pay for. And as long as the minimum is generally sufficient, meaning not too many settlements in lawsuits, they see no reason to spend more or make officers work harder.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

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