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Thread: PD Developments and Revelations from a Qual Day

  1. #1

    PD Developments and Revelations from a Qual Day

    I went to my bi-annual qualification day, pistol, rifle and shotgun and here are some observations/revelations:

    The majority of officers (and these are specially trained officers for rifle/shotgun as not everyone is allowed to carry/deploy them) really suck with a pistol. I'd say most would run a high 9 second FAST, inaccurately and a 14 second FAST if they were required to be 100% accurate. (Being generous)

    Two officer's in the qual class had to be re-taught how to use the iron sights on the rifles as they were using the wings on the FSB instead of the actual front sight.

    One officer is probably legally blind, and could not hit a 12x24 target at 50y with irons sights on his rifle, or his full sized target at 25y.

    I was the only one who actually scanned between strings of fire. I know this because two out of the 6 instructors told me I was, same two asked me if I was in the military, as well as a few of the other officers. Preconceived idea that people in the military know how to shoot better than the average person?

    I was asked why I running the shotgun and rifle high port, after explaining movement in an urban environment in a few sentences the instructors looked at me as though I wasn't speaking English - though I am pretty sure I was. I asked them what they recommended and they said they weren't taught any specific way other than having the stock on the shoulder during movement.

    Turns out what they are teaching us and what we are actually having to do on the street are two different things - whodathunk it?

    A guy ND'd a shotgun (00 buck) into the dirt in front of us during a forward movement drill. Thankfully he had enough mind to point it forward enough it didn't hit anyone. No one seemed to care. *facepalm*

    Now to some meaty stuff:

    We no longer us Federal HST 147gr 9mm duty loads. We switched to RA9T. I asked the sgt down there and he said "it's a QC issue of some kind." .40 and .357/.38 switched as well, but .45 is staying with 230gr HST. I don't understand this at all. Our rifle and shotgun ammo is still federal. Anyone have info on this? Anything out there on HST 9mm duty load QC issues?

    We were told that Gen4 Glock 21's shit the bed hardcore over the last few recruit classes who came through the range qual weeks during their academy. The instructor said something like 20 out of 30 firing pins would break during this three to four week range period. This repeated itself four of five times until the brass decided everyone was getting a mix of recycled Gen3 Glock 17's and new Gen4's, no such issues with them (duh).

    This precipitated an issue with Glock not giving them the answers they wanted to hear and S&W jumped in with the 2.0 in 9mm, showing them a whole range day thing trying to win the contract. S&W said they'd pay for complete replacement of all guns with new ones, spare mags, even holsters and mag pouches. That is a lot of money to get this contract and it is up in the air right now.

    The issue the PD will have is that in our contract it says we do not have to switch pistols if we do not want to, hence why we still have people walking around with wheel guns old enough to be my parents age. They are now allowed to make us switch, so I don't think I would even if it is the new PD rule. That said, the instructor perpetuating the rumor mill stated that this was all up in the air and that they didn't know if it was going through or not. I brought up the known accuracy issues with the original M&P pistols and he looked at me as though I had six heads.

    Overall an interesting day.
    Last edited by voodoo_man; 02-24-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Any of the big ammo makers can have a bad lot from time to time. With that being said, the only maker that we have received a bad lot from was Winchester (RA9B). We have had no issues with any ATK ammo. Federal HST 9mm 147gr is the current issue and there have been no problems.

    Go easy on us oldsters who like wheel guns, Junior!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason M View Post
    Any of the big ammo makers can have a bad lot from time to time. With that being said, the only maker that we have received a bad lot from was Winchester (RA9B). We have had no issues with any ATK ammo. Federal HST 9mm 147gr is the current issue and there have been no problems.

    Go easy on us oldsters who like wheel guns, Junior!
    At least they aren't teaching us the Isosceles stance anymore.
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    Like this
    Last edited by Jason M; 02-24-2017 at 09:19 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason M View Post
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    Like this
    Can't tell if that's you or nyeti in your younger days as you both look pretty similar.

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  6. #6
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    not nyeti. doesn't look like a hebrew hammer firearm.
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  7. #7
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    Voodoo,

    The QC issues were NOT with Federal. Winchester has had awful QC issues for the last few years on pistol duty ammo. That's the main reason why Dallas PD switched to Hornady recently. I was speaking with one of DPD's FTU guys yesterday and he was telling me that he had seen two defective Hornady rounds in the past year of use (100s of thousands of rounds). He recollected that he had seen two defective rounds in one box of Winchester ammo. DPD FTU kept a "box of horrors" of Winchester QC failures and it was loaded with bad factory DUTY rounds.

    As for your Glock strikers going bad, I recall two of your FTU guys telling me at a Colt Armorer class I was teaching in NJ a couple of years ago, that they had isolated that problem to the lead free training ammo you guys were using and a characteristic of the primers in that ammo that eroded striker noses. Is that still a possibility?
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Voodoo,

    The QC issues were NOT with Federal. Winchester has had awful QC issues for the last few years on pistol duty ammo. That's the main reason why Dallas PD switched to Hornady recently. I was speaking with one of DPD's FTU guys yesterday and he was telling me that he had seen two defective Hornady rounds in the past year of use (100s of thousands of rounds). He recollected that he had seen two defective rounds in one box of Winchester ammo. DPD FTU kept a "box of horrors" of Winchester QC failures and it was loaded with bad factory DUTY rounds.

    As for your Glock strikers going bad, I recall two of your FTU guys telling me at a Colt Armorer class I was teaching in NJ a couple of years ago, that they had isolated that problem to the lead free training ammo you guys were using and a characteristic of the primers in that ammo that eroded striker noses. Is that still a possibility?
    It is all new to me as I've never heard of anything even remotely close to these issues. I know, as Jason M stated above that RA9B had issues but not RA9T. I have never heard of a single HST issue and have only seen it used effectively. The FTU guys I know personally all say that the HST has had zero issues which could be directly attributed to it, specifically.

    As for the Gen4 G21 striker issues, I know PSP (PA State Police) had 21's and they ditched them for Sig's recently due to issues. I do not know if its because of lead or lead free ammo, honestly we buy the cheapest possible ammo available for training/qual so I am not surprised if they found some dirt cheap ammo during the great ammo depression of the Obama years, post Newtown.

    As of now, I know we have a limited amount of lead-free ammo which is in the form of frangible we use for the our Roger's plate range. But we don't get that often as its "expensive."
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  9. #9
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    I am a bit surprised to hear about that many G21G4 issues, I thought the G4 Glocks were finally pretty much sorted except for BTF in 9mm. Had been eyeballing a cheap one on Recoil Gunworks and will probably back off and read more now.

    Do you think it likely the M2.0 would be adopted when it's still so new and issues haven't been shaken out yet? It makes money sense but that seems soon to hop on a brand new pistol.
    Last edited by LockedBreech; 02-24-2017 at 11:57 AM.
    State Government Attorney | Beretta, Glock, CZ & S&W Fan

  10. #10
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    Nothing surprises me any more as far as police equipment choices, training or skill. Too often departments change because somebody in charge wants something new or different. Often they choose a shiny bobble that they are too cheap to buy themselves. Personally I want simple , reliable, durable and relatively affordable. Which means not expensive or cheap because that's what you want to spend. It has to work 24/7 100 percent. It's hard to tell the new hires- it's the Indian , not the arrow

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