Could be. I did have another string with a .09.Originally Posted by Gio
It wasn't my normal day at the range either. I was quick that day.....particularly on the draw stroke shot.....which usually is closer to two seconds from concealment.
Could be. I did have another string with a .09.
It wasn't my normal day at the range either. I was quick that day.....particularly on the draw stroke shot.....which usually is closer to two seconds from concealment.
Reading is fundamental. I never claimed the trigger did not reset. I never claimed the pistol did not fire the second shot. In fact, I have clearly stated more than once that the pistol did fire.
One thing I've learned in my time on this site and another is to not veer out of my lane. But just as importantly, I've learned what my lane is. I know how to figure out how machines work. It is a very important part of my profession and if I couldn't do that, I wouldn't have a job. I rarely refer to my "I Love Me" wall, but I'm going to do so now. I am a highly skilled and trained aircraft technician and am trained and experienced in many aircraft systems. A pistol is a very simple machine compared to most aircraft systems, let alone an aircraft as a whole. I also feel driven to solve mechanical mysteries when I come across them.
I do not care if you think no one is fast enough to let up on the trigger before the slide returns to battery. I do know what I experienced. I do know what conclusions my investigations have led me to. I do not tell others how to shoot. That's not may area of expertise. But I do have more than fifty years of experience pressing a variety of triggers. So, either understand what I'm saying and learn something from it, or don't.
Nothing personal, but this has gotten frustrating. I am not a stupid man
Last edited by MistWolf; 03-27-2017 at 02:21 PM.
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Pretty sure Gio is a GM. No offense but I don't think your posts are going to teach him a whole lot about pulling triggers, even if you have been doing it for 50 years.
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I am not insulting your intelligence. You clearly lack experience on glock triggers though, and several people have responded to this thread telling you that there is no physical way your trigger finger is coming off the trigger before the slide has allowed it to reset. You stated this earlier:
No one is arguing that glock triggers reset before the slide cycles. What I and other experienced shooters in this thread are telling you is that what you think you are perceiving is incorrect unless the glock you were shooting is mechanically broken. Assuming you have ruled out the mechanical part by trying more than a sample size of one glock, you are likely doing something in your trigger press that is causing you to perceive this sensation of your trigger finger outrunning the trigger.The problem I have with the Glock, is the trigger is too slow. I break the shot and let up my finger but the trigger does not follow the finger because it will not reset until the slide is back in battery. It's distracting when my finger loses contact with the trigger bow because I wonder what went wrong
EDIT: You also posted these two statements:
How do you do that? Every factory Glock I've tried won't let the trigger reset, or even move forward, until the slide has returned to battery. When I try to reset a Glock trigger during recoil, my finger loses the triggerSo is it multiple Glocks you've tried or just the one range rental? If you are basing all this on a range rental, it is entirely possible the gun was disassembled at some point and not put back together correctly or the trigger return spring is broken or there is some other actual mechanical issue that is causing the trigger to just not reset properly.It's possible I was shooting the world's slowest Glock. It was a range rental and I was doing double taps as quick as I could with no regard to accuracy or picking up the sight, just to get a feel for the pistol. That's how I discovered the Glock trigger won't reset until the slide is in battery
Last edited by Gio; 03-27-2017 at 03:39 PM.
The trigger is like that on more than one Glock and I believe it's like that on all factory Glocks. You can clearly see in the video Surf posted, that the trigger does not reset until the slide returns to battery. If you don't believe the video, try it on your own Glock.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but there is nothing magical or unique about a Glock trigger. It's simply a 2 stage trigger with a long, stacking break that does not return to reset until the slide returns to battery. It's not that hard to figure out.
While an AR if not a Glock, it's a clear example that yes, a mortal human can outrun the action which became obvious with the advent of the Franklin Binary trigger.
If what I claim is impossible, tell me how it could be possible beyond "there is something wrong with that Glock". If there is something wrong with the Glocks I've experienced this with, please explain what it's wrong and how it causes this phenomena. My years of training as a technician are obviously lacking.
Here's some more food for thought- The hammer of a rivit gun has 1200 strokes per minute when the trigger is pressed. I can press and release the trigger fast enough to get only a single hit, when needed. I do this on a daily basis. I suppose this is impossible as well.
If this part of the conversation continues in the vein of "that couldn't happen", I'll just bow out because there will be nothing further for me to learn
Last edited by MistWolf; 03-27-2017 at 04:33 PM.
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@MistWolf, I don't know what to tell you then. I've tried to tell you multiple times, Surf said it multiple times (quoted below). In Surf's videos posted in this thread, the camera can't even catch the slide in recoil, or at most you catch one frame of the slide out of battery, even in the slow motion clips. It simply happens too fast, and it's too fast for you to not only out run it and take your finger off the trigger, but for you to realize that you broke contact with the trigger in the first place. I have trained thousands of Glock shooters and put 10's of thousands of rounds a year exclusively through Glocks myself. I've put shooters on extremely slow motion cameras to diagnose trigger control issues, and I've hooked shooters up to trigger graph machines attached to Glock triggers that show precisely how much force is being applied to the trigger throughout the trigger press and recoil cycle...I've never seen a person who's finger outruns the trigger.
I was responding to you earlier in this thread trying to impart that the range rental experience you had comparing a Glock to a Walther wasn't based on a complete understanding of what you experienced. That's one of the best things about this forum that sets it apart from most others...you can count on people who are subject matter experts to offer advice or guidance so your decisions are based on more than just limited exposure to something new.
Mechanically, if the trigger return spring is broken or not installed properly, the trigger can be sluggish to reset/will not reset at all. It's unlikely that this is the case on every Glock you've shot though, so I'd guess this is not your issue. Here's a video that demonstrates shooting a gun with a broken TRS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6SSyXgr1Nc
Last edited by Gio; 03-28-2017 at 09:26 AM.
That discussion made me want to see if a Glock can fire out of battery.
Well, it can dry fire out of battery (not much out of battery though). One dry fire, pull back the slide and very slowly let it go forward as I, very slowly, let the trigger go forward until it resets; the trigger was reset before the gun was fully in battery (not by much) and I could (and did) press it back which released the striker.
Last edited by Wondering Beard; 03-28-2017 at 10:38 AM.
Here's something that can maybe add to the discussion, though it may be specific to me.
Skip to 0:33 of this high speed video where the Bill Drill starts. It was 1.92 with 6A at 7 yards, and for me that is shooting very close to the raw speed I can move my trigger finger. On this kind of drill I tend to see splits of ~.20 or so, and almost never faster than .18. I'm not a fast splitter. If I just shoot into the berm as fast as I can with no target at all, .18 is as low as I usually get. I think I have seen a .15 split on the timer, twice in my whole life.
A friend lent me a high speed camera in the context of another discussion, to see exactly when in the draw I was getting my finger on the trigger. Separate from that, in the Bill Drill, we have a decent view of me running my finger very close to as fast as I can, and you can see the whole cycling action of the gun, the gun returning from recoil, and when I reset the trigger in relation to those. I'm nowhere near outrunning the gun myself.The short version is that the slide has completely cycled and the the gun is back on target BEFORE I even get the trigger reset, let alone fire the next shot, even when running the trigger about as fast as I can. The gun has a stock trigger spring.
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Are you sure that's slow-mo because that's what I look like in real time.
FOLLOWUP:
While our transition to the 19M has not occurred yet, I recently attended a course that provided an opportunity to send several hundred rounds down range from a Glock.
My main take away lessons:
- I hate the Glock
- I shoot the Glock on par with or better than the SIG... with substantially less trigger time.
- Glock Mag release is terrible
- Glock Slide release is terrible
- Finger groves on the Gen4 grip don't matter to me
- I like mags that drop free...
To expand a bit. I don't like it, it feels terrible in my hand, and I shoot it really well. I think the grip angle pre-loads my wrists just a little bit more than the sig does, and it offsets my lack of forearm strength much better than the sig. At first I thought it was the bore axis, but my splits were Much faster with the Glock than the SIG.
The mag release is designed by an idiot, and I keep holding it in on the opposite side with my fingers, as I struggle to push it with my thumb. F- design gaston.
It's ok though, because the gun likes to be much closer to vertical for the mags to drop free. So by the time my other strong hand gets back up to the gun with a new mag, maybe the magwell is clear, and maybe I have to troubleshoot why there is still a mag left in there. Am I not able to push the button, or have I just been impaitient and moved the glock out of its mag-dropping comfort zone too quickly.
The slide release is not conveniently located under my thumb where it is supposed to be for maximum operators operation. I found that hitting it with my support hand during re-extension works well for me, but it is going to be a long climb out of that particular muscle memory habit.
The bottom line is that for the first magazine, I am better off with a Glock than a SIG. At that point, the wheels fall off a bit for me. The Glock has a larger capacity, is more concealable, and it is lighter. Not to mention, I can carry 17 mags as my reloads. I will hate the soulless Tupperware the entire time I carry it (provided they ever issue them to us), but I fully expect to have a noticeable performance increase over my current level of sustainment, for similar levels of training.
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