Transitioning to Glock

[Rex G]

Some random thoughts:

Easily-reached/convenient controls can be all too easily inadvertently activated at inconvenient times.

Most gunfights conclude before the in-gun magazine is expended.

The best way to carry a second magazine, is inside the mag well of a well-positioned second gun. (I have found, with double-column-mag Glock pistols, it can be about as easy to conceal another whole gun, as it is to conceal a spare mag.) This means a speed-reload need not occur until one has expended 30+ rounds, which, unless one is wasting rounds, is a quite extraordinary gunfight. This does not mean I always carry two Glocks, but some of the time, I do.

I voluntarily returned to Glocks, after eleven years of SIGs. I switched from Gen3 G22 pistols, in 2004, to the SIG P229R, for accuracy. The .40 Snap & Whip, fired from high-bore-axis SIGs, had started to hurt too much. (Not blaming .40 for anything; I fired too many big-bore Magnums in the Eighties.) In 2015, my chief authorized 9mm as an alternative patrol duty cartridge, so I switched to 9mm, and returned to Glocks, because Gen4 fits me better than Gen3.

I had already bought a pair of G19 Gen4 pistols, in anticipation of potentially moving to a plainclothes investigator position, where I would be allowed to qual with 9mm duty pistols. Being able to carry 9mm on patrol, by October 2015, I added a Gen4 G17. Having recently been assigned a smaller patrol vehicle, I now tend to carry a G19 in my duty rig, especially when riding shotgun, in the FTO role, as it is harder to bail from the right front seat with a larger pistol on the right hip.

[Surf]

FOLLOWUP:

While our transition to the 19M has not occurred yet, I recently attended a course that provided an opportunity to send several hundred rounds down range from a Glock.

My main take away lessons:
- I hate the Glock (As a long time P226 SA/DA guy I really hated the Glock for a long time also.)
- I shoot the Glock on par with or better than the SIG... with substantially less trigger time. (My results were also self evident. The Glock results over a shorter period of time in comparison could not be denied. Long term results are clear.)
- Glock Mag release is terrible (Mostly agree. It is not a good mag release but the Gen4 is an improvement over the Gen3 and the FBI stop is a tad better, but it could be dramatically improved without much effort on behalf of Glock)
- Glock Slide release is terrible (Agreed. I also do not like the extended 34/35 slide stop. Something like the Vickers stop is a big improvement.)
- Finger groves on the Gen4 grip don't matter to me
- I like mags that drop free... (Technique can help greatly. They are nowhere near the slippery Sig Mags that like to jump right out)

To expand a bit. I don't like it, it feels terrible in my hand, and I shoot it really well. I think the grip angle pre-loads my wrists just a little bit more than the sig does, and it offsets my lack of forearm strength much better than the sig. At first I thought it was the bore axis, but my splits were Much faster with the Glock than the SIG. (I genuinely feel that it is a combination of the two. Weight and balance of a weapon can overcome bore axis, but I feel it definitely helps the Glock)

The mag release is designed by an idiot, and I keep holding it in on the opposite side with my fingers, as I struggle to push it with my thumb. F- design gaston. (Agree not the best design. Reps and technique will quickly resolve this and once that happens you won't even remember it)

It's ok though, because the gun likes to be much closer to vertical for the mags to drop free. So by the time my other strong hand gets back up to the gun with a new mag, maybe the magwell is clear, and maybe I have to troubleshoot why there is still a mag left in there. Am I not able to push the button, or have I just been impaitient and moved the glock out of its mag-dropping comfort zone too quickly. (This is where a slight alteration of technique will almost completely resolve this issue, however the design of the magwell area could be improved on by Glock to help the situation.)

The slide release is not conveniently located under my thumb where it is supposed to be for maximum operators operation. I found that hitting it with my support hand during re-extension works well for me, but it is going to be a long climb out of that particular muscle memory habit. (You must also have short fingers as I also had that complaint about the Glock especially the Gen3's. The Gen4's were better with their decreased trigger reach, however I still prefer that it be reduced. Again a technique change may be in order and a small flip might help. I grew up flipping 1911's so I do it well, but I hate having to adjust my grip to release a mag.)

The bottom line is that for the first magazine, I am better off with a Glock than a SIG. At that point, the wheels fall off a bit for me. The Glock has a larger capacity, is more concealable, and it is lighter. Not to mention, I can carry 17 mags as my reloads. I will hate the soulless Tupperware the entire time I carry it (provided they ever issue them to us), but I fully expect to have a noticeable performance increase over my current level of sustainment, for similar levels of training.
(If you put in genuine and quality training time with the Glock, I predict you will quickly outpace your past results and learn to love the pistol. Actually I think that you would probably like the 17 better.)

[JDD]

Some random thoughts:

Easily-reached/convenient controls can be all too easily inadvertently activated at inconvenient times.

Most gunfights conclude before the in-gun magazine is expended.

The best way to carry a second magazine, is inside the mag well of a well-positioned second gun. (I have found, with double-column-mag Glock pistols, it can be about as easy to conceal another whole gun, as it is to conceal a spare mag.) This means a speed-reload need not occur until one has expended 30+ rounds, which, unless one is wasting rounds, is a quite extraordinary gunfight. This does not mean I always carry two Glocks, but some of the time, I do.

I voluntarily returned to Glocks, after eleven years of SIGs. I switched from Gen3 G22 pistols, in 2004, to the SIG P229R, for accuracy. The .40 Snap & Whip, fired from high-bore-axis SIGs, had started to hurt too much. (Not blaming .40 for anything; I fired too many big-bore Magnums in the Eighties.) In 2015, my chief authorized 9mm as an alternative patrol duty cartridge, so I switched to 9mm, and returned to Glocks, because Gen4 fits me better than Gen3.

I had already bought a pair of G19 Gen4 pistols, in anticipation of potentially moving to a plainclothes investigator position, where I would be allowed to qual with 9mm duty pistols. Being able to carry 9mm on patrol, by October 2015, I added a Gen4 G17. Having recently been assigned a smaller patrol vehicle, I now tend to carry a G19 in my duty rig, especially when riding shotgun, in the FTO role, as it is harder to bail from the right front seat with a larger pistol on the right hip.

asily-reached/convenient controls can be all too easily inadvertently activated at inconvenient times.


I would love to dive more into this point. Could you expand? The P229 has the potential lock-back issues with riding the slide release, but I am struggling with the idea that it is better to make controls less easily reached...

My mission set has aspects that are more protection focused, and slightly different than a standard LEO threat environment. I like to think of it in the context that I will probably either have way too many rounds, or nowhere near enough rounds. That said, they are planning to issue us G26s in addition to the 19M. I really like the idea of having a backup gun that takes the same mags as my primary gun. Unfortunately when I am working, belt real estate is pretty limited already, and you can only push the tactical plaid button down to cover so much stuff.

[JDD]

(Agree not the best design. Reps and technique will quickly resolve this and once that happens you won't even remember it)
(This is where a slight alteration of technique will almost completely resolve this issue, however the design of the magwell area could be improved on by Glock to help the situation.)

It looks like the 19M does have a slightly re-designed mag well area, so I am optimistic that at some point in the next 3 to 36 months when I get a hold of it. Is the best technique you have found to simply not cant the gun 'till the mag is gone? That is going to be a hard muscle memory for me to break, since my immediate action has always been pull right back into work-space when there is a click no bang.

i appreciate the feedback!


*edit:quoting errors

[Rex G]

asily-reached/convenient controls can be all too easily inadvertently activated at inconvenient times.


I would love to dive more into this point. Could you expand? The P229 has the potential lock-back issues with riding the slide release, but I am struggling with the idea that it is better to make controls less easily reached...

My mission set has aspects that are more protection focused, and slightly different than a standard LEO threat environment. I like to think of it in the context that I will probably either have way too many rounds, or nowhere near enough rounds. That said, they are planning to issue us G26s in addition to the 19M. I really like the idea of having a backup gun that takes the same mags as my primary gun. Unfortunately when I am working, belt real estate is pretty limited already, and you can only push the tactical plaid button down to cover so much stuff.

My thumbs are short enough, and I normally locked my thumb downward, revolver-style, so that I had no problems with the P229 slide lock. (Unlike a narrower 1911, which feels best in my hand when gripped thumb-forward.)

A too-easily-reached magazine release button could convert one's pistol to a single-shot, or, in the case of pistols with a magazine safety, a zero-shot. In the case of the magazine release button, it really is as simple as that. Carrying a weapon that will drop its magazine too readily is a personal decision. I stopped carrying my old-school P220, in 1993, because I managed to snag its heel-clip-style magazine release lever, causing a partial mag drop, four times in two years. This occurred while holstered, not while handling the weapon. (The base of the grip frame was snagging the seat backs/bolsters while seated in vehicles, while wearing the mandated duty holster.) I actually reverted to mostly revolvers for four years; better six for sure, than maybe seven or eight.

I carry my G26 in an Alessi Ankle Holster. Our issued Blauer duty trousers have fairly full-cut legs, making it practical, if not truly concealed, as there IS plenty of bulge where the outer rear corner of the slide bears against the fabric.

[psalms144.1]

A too-easily-reached magazine release button could convert one's pistol to a single-shot, or, in the case of pistols with a magazine safety, a zero-shot.

I carry my G26 in an Alessi Ankle Holster.

100% agreed. I have a Kahr PM9 that I love, but the combination of a tiny grip and a "soft" magazine release means I all too frequently find that I'm inadvertently hitting the release; BUT because the grip is so short the magazine stays in my hand. This results in a JUST UNLOCKED magazine that, you guessed it, won't feed, but doesn't drop free as a "clue" that there's a problem.

My G26 rides in a Galco Ankle holster. I wear jeans a lot, and I can see the "print" of the pistol, but I've never been made, even by other LEOs who I've met with. In suit pants, with lighter material, the print is a bigger issue, but nowhere near as big as the fact that my pant leg rides up enough that most of the pistol/holster are exposed when I sit down...

[Chuck Whitlock]

100% agreed. I have a Kahr PM9 that I love, but the combination of a tiny grip and a "soft" magazine release means I all too frequently find that I'm inadvertently hitting the release; BUT because the grip is so short the magazine stays in my hand. This results in a JUST UNLOCKED magazine that, you guessed it, won't feed, but doesn't drop free as a "clue" that there's a problem.

Just FYI, replacing the Kahr mag release spring with a Glock one helps stiffen it up a little. The Glock spring is a little longer, so you'll want to trim it a bit. (I believe I got that from JodyH some time ago) Worked in my CW9.

[Surf]

It looks like the 19M does have a slightly re-designed mag well area, so I am optimistic that at some point in the next 3 to 36 months when I get a hold of it. Is the best technique you have found to simply not cant the gun 'till the mag is gone? That is going to be a hard muscle memory for me to break, since my immediate action has always been pull right back into work-space when there is a click no bang.

i appreciate the feedback!


*edit:quoting errors

JDD, the 19M does have a magwell alteration but not nearly as good at they could have done with it. I still fix the 19's but the grips thickness at the magwell is a bit different on a 17 as opposed to a 19 and aren't as effective as the 17.

Yes, reprogramming yourself will take a bit of effort but if you break down the reload sequence into smaller steps and drill each segment before adding the next piece of the puzzle it will go much quicker and be far more effective. Practice this drill.

1 - Start the drill with pistol in slide lock, magazine inserted, normal two handed grip at full extension.
2 - Keep the pistol vertical and drop the mag with pistol vertical until magazine clears the weapon, WHILE moving the pistol towards your workspace AND support hand moving to the magazine.
3 - STOP when support hand makes contact with reload magazine STILL in the pouch.
4 - Support hand should be indexed on new magazine in the pouch, Pistol should still be in vertical position in your workspace and ejected magazine should be on the deck.
5 - Set it up again and repeat.

Run this several times starting at about 30% speed, moving to 50%, then 75%, then full speed. DO NOT increase the speed until you can do it at 100% at each pace. Cut out all excess movement and use correct technique with everything. This is ONLY part 1 of a 3 step process that I use to break down a reload in training a shooter. But this is a great start to keeping it vertical.

The following video shows my technique and what I am talking about. Note the small shift in my primary hand when hitting the magazine release. This is to allow the magazine release to press all the way through on the Glock and a bit of an effect of reaching the release in general. This entire technique can become normal and ingrained rapidly, often in about 15 to 30 mins of correct execution through the entire 3 step process. Of course it is up to the individual to continue the practice in order to not revert and to continually refine the entire process.

[psalms144.1]

Just FYI, replacing the Kahr mag release spring with a Glock one helps stiffen it up a little. The Glock spring is a little longer, so you'll want to trim it a bit. (I believe I got that from JodyH some time ago) Worked in my CW9.

Sorry for the drift, but anyone with a Kahr with this kind of issue - send their CS an e-mail. They have an "improved" release and/or spring, and they're shipping them to me, no questions asked, for free.

[JDD]

JDD, the 19M does have a magwell alteration but not nearly as good at they could have done with it. I still fix the 19's but the grips thickness at the magwell is a bit different on a 17 as opposed to a 19 and aren't as effective as the 17.

Yes, reprogramming yourself will take a bit of effort but if you break down the reload sequence into smaller steps and drill each segment before adding the next piece of the puzzle it will go much quicker and be far more effective. Practice this drill.

Update:

I am now in possession of a brand new 19M and some other Glock related paraphernalia.

First, I really appreciate this specific advice Surf, it has made a huge difference for me. I am not sure where the post I made earlier thanking you for this went, but I can't overstate the improvement to my technique.

Our agencies transition course is pretty solid within the confines of an institutional training program. We got a fair chunk of gear issued with the new guns, and they took their time and walked us through all of it, and then ran drills focused on the basic skills for each piece of kit. It was a course designed to take decent shooting folks who can pass a qual with a sig, and turn them into folks who are legally certified to pass a qual and carry a Glock, but they addressed all of the major pitfalls that I ran into (including getting the mags to drop free) the first time I shot a glock.

The 19M is a little rougher than the Gen4 with a gazillion rounds down the pipe that I have previously spent time with, but it is growing on me. The sights we have are really nice, they look like a slightly smaller version of the Trijicon HD sights I have on a P227. The dot is easy to pick up close in, but not so large that it drowns things out at the 25 yard line. The trigger is rougher than I am used to at distance. Even with the constant lower press weight, I had more trouble shooting 25 yard groups than I had doing Double action only groups with the SIG. It may be a function of not yet having a smooth press with the pad of my finger.

Bottom line, this thread has been extremely useful, and I don't hate my Glock nearly as much as I would without it.