Start/Surrender positions (split off)

[voodoo_man]

Plenty of people are dead because they drew on a drawn gun. Your proposing an absolute that simply isn't always the best course of action. Sometimes faking compliance or surrender can create an opprutonity to act. Other times it may be prudent to act immediately. There is a difference between iniating an ambush when comparing it to a counter ambush.


You also said this isn't how reality works. There are plenty examples on that YouTube channel showing that in fact does work in reality. He also has examples of how drawing on a drawn gun will get you killed. It's really dangerous to state absolutes.

I asked a question and by no means created an absolute statement.

That same YouTube channel shows them training this surrender position repeatedly, guess what they will default to when presented with a threat?

Furthermore, they are displaying absolutes and disregarding any situational awareness. If you didn't see the guy walking upto you and you did not properly discrimate him as a threat then you've already put yourself into a bad situation, even more so if all you do is train this surrender method.

This works much better in person and the outcome becomes clear very quickly.

[voodoo_man]

I realize I used the word or so it makes it seem as though it's an absolute, the question was not meant to be an absolute. Rather it's meant to be a question of what actions are required over those which are not. Feigning compliance is not something which should be considered during a deadly force threat. Obviously this may not be your personal stance on the matter.

[orionz06]

So what should one do then?

[blues]

I realize I used the word or so it makes it seem as though it's an absolute, the question was not meant to be an absolute. Rather it's meant to be a question of what actions are required over those which are not. Feigning compliance is not something which should be considered during a deadly force threat. Obviously this may not be your personal stance on the matter.

I don't understand how you can make a blanket statement like that after you just said you weren't speaking in absolutes.

Feigning compliance absolutely "might" be the best strategy in a given situation if it allows one the opportunity to extricate oneself with or without deadly force...and without getting oneself killed in the process.

It may not be the action you'd want or hope to take given your druthers but that doesn't mean it wouldn't prove to be the best available option in the circumstances.

[breakingtime91]

I asked a question and by no means created an absolute statement.

That same YouTube channel shows them training this surrender position repeatedly, guess what they will default to when presented with a threat?

Furthermore, they are displaying absolutes and disregarding any situational awareness. If you didn't see the guy walking upto you and you did not properly discrimate him as a threat then you've already put yourself into a bad situation, even more so if all you do is train this surrender method.

This works much better in person and the outcome becomes clear very quickly.

I should of specified, I wouldnt train with that guys outfit. I like them as a resource to watch videos of shootings that involve mostly civilians or off duty cops

[blues]

If I were in a bodega to pick up some groceries and a guy burst in with a shotgun and his eyes and weapon were trained directly on me when he came in...I might feign compliance by showing my hands hoping that he would turn his attention and weapon toward other customers or cashier in the store which might afford me the opportunity to act rather than take a load of buckshot to the chest by acting prematurely.

Every situation will have its own dynamics. I wouldn't rule any course of action out. But that's just me.

[LittleLebowski]

If I were in a bodega to pick up some groceries and a guy burst in with a shotgun and his eyes and weapon were trained directly on me when he came in...I might feign compliance by showing my hands hoping that he would turn his attention and weapon toward other customers or cashier in the store which might afford me the opportunity to act rather than take a load of buckshot to the chest by acting prematurely.

Every situation will have its own dynamics. I wouldn't rule any course of action out. But that's just me.

Agreed, things are shades of gray to me usually, not absolute black and whites.

[voodoo_man]

Again, not speaking in absolutes.

Talking about a situation where you are outside the reactionary gap of a person who is aiming a pistol at you. Telling you "give me your money" and you guys would opt to give him your money?

What stops him from shooting you? What have you done to stop him from shooting you?

This is the type of conversation which has numerous different ways of looking at it. We can go extreme with numerous people pointing guns at you from various angles or one guy with a knife 10 yards away.

Regardless of the situation, this is a logic problem. Do you allow someone to determine if you get shot or do you make the choice? What are the possible outcomes in these situations? Best case you hope he doesn't shoot you? Yeah no thanks.

Still, defaulting to a surrender position is not the instant reaction which should be trained.

[orionz06]

Our robber, how are away are they as they have a handgun aimed at us?

[blues]

Again, not speaking in absolutes.

Talking about a situation where you are outside the reactionary gap of a person who is aiming a pistol at you. Telling you "give me your money" and you guys would opt to give him your money?

What stops him from shooting you? What have you done to stop him from shooting you?

This is the type of conversation which has numerous different ways of looking at it. We can go extreme with numerous people pointing guns at you from various angles or one guy with a knife 10 yards away.

Regardless of the situation, this is a logic problem. Do you allow someone to determine if you get shot or do you make the choice? What are the possible outcomes in these situations? Best case you hope he doesn't shoot you? Yeah no thanks.

Still, defaulting to a surrender position is not the instant reaction which should be trained.

Different scenarios. But again you say you're not speaking in "absolutes" but follow it up with saying what shouldn't be trained. IMHO, the more training you do, or the more you imagine various responses to various scenarios, the better your chance of survival if and when one of them comes to pass.

Train for different scenarios. Prepare your mind for different scenarios. Why be a one trick pony if there's no need to be?

That said, I agree with you in that I do not want to give the BG the final say on the matter...and if it's a Tueller drill scenario, definitely not.