Sig P220 Compacts. Thoughts?

[MattyD380]

I searched around on Sig durability. Found some of the John Hearne posts mentioned...

The consensus seems to be that the small parts (springs, pins, mim levers & locking inserts) are not of the same quality they once were. So you get minor parts breakage sooner. So... JTQ's assertion that the newer slides are stronger is probably correct... but it's not the slides that are breaking.

I generally fall on the "old sig" side of the "old vs new Sig" debate. I was thinking I might try a newer one. Not sure now.

[Flintsky]

I searched around on Sig durability. Found some of the John Hearne posts mentioned...

The consensus seems to be that the small parts (springs, pins, mim levers & locking inserts) are not of the same quality they once were. So you get minor parts breakage sooner. So... JTQ's assertion that the newer slides are stronger is probably correct... but it's not the slides that are breaking.

I generally fall on the "old sig" side of the "old vs new Sig" debate. I was thinking I might try a newer one. Not sure now.

My P220 experience was mostly with the W. German ones, and I never broke a part on any of them even after thousands of rounds. I personally believe that many of the parts breakages on the P220 series are a result of operating the pistol dry(unloaded). Lots of dry firing without snap caps, and letting the slide slam forward unloaded. The most common parts breakages on the P220 are the take down lever and locking block. Letting the slide slam home unloaded with no round stripped from the magazine causes considerably more stress on those parts than simply firing the pistol. This is a common practice in the LE community which probably contributes to the P220's poor reputation, particularly in federal agencies. I would consider this to be a "flaw" in the P220 design as many modern designs this is not a problem(HK45, M&P,....etc).

I doubt that I would ever go back to the P220 as a duty pistol, but as a general purpose conceal carry pistol for both people and woods it makes a nice gun if you treat it right. From my own experiences, I would prefer to never carry anything on duty that holds less than 12rds now days. The need for maximizing single hand operation, and having many more rounds on tap than you think you might need seems to be a recurring reality in deadly force situations.

[JTQ]

This is all from memory, I haven't read this stuff in a while...

Referencing John Hearne's posts, I believe he uses stainless framed P220's. I also believe ToddG has some comments on the forum, about the lack of flex the SS frames have which may contribute to shortened longevity of some small parts. I think John Hearne has also commented he's used a P245 as a back up gun, and ended up using it in a class when his P220 broke (I can't remember what broke). I believe his comment was the P245 was difficult enough to shoot, relative to the P220, that he'd take the concealability hit with the P220, so he could have an easier to shoot gun. Hopefully, John Hearne will pop in to correct my errors, if I've made any.

Another point regarding the durability of the entire SIG line-up is the P220 was designed for 9mm and then became a .45 Auto and .38 Super launcher. The P229 was designed as a .40 S&W gun.

[MattyD380]

My P220 experience was mostly with the W. German ones, and I never broke a part on any of them even after thousands of rounds. I personally believe that many of the parts breakages on the P220 series are a result of operating the pistol dry(unloaded). Lots of dry firing without snap caps, and letting the slide slam forward unloaded. The most common parts breakages on the P220 are the take down lever and locking block. Letting the slide slam home unloaded with no round stripped from the magazine causes considerably more stress on those parts than simply firing the pistol. This is a common practice in the LE community which probably contributes to the P220's poor reputation, particularly in federal agencies. I would consider this to be a "flaw" in the P220 design as many modern designs this is not a problem(HK45, M&P,....etc).

I doubt that I would ever go back to the P220 as a duty pistol, but as a general purpose conceal carry pistol for both people and woods it makes a nice gun if you treat it right. From my own experiences, I would prefer to never carry anything on duty that holds less than 12rds now days. The need for maximizing single hand operation, and having many more rounds on tap than you think you might need seems to be a recurring reality in deadly force situations.

Seems like you've had a pretty solid experience with the WG 220s. That seems more or less the norm for the classic ones.

Honestly, I never really prioritized high round count with CCW. I usually do tote an extra mag with my P239... but you usually hear just a few shots are all you need. Though, if an SD situation escalates into a real gunfight... yeah, I wouldn't want less than 12 rounds either.

[MattyD380]

This is all from memory, I haven't read this stuff in a while...

Referencing John Hearne's posts, I believe he uses stainless framed P220's. I also believe ToddG has some comments on the forum, about the lack of flex the SS frames have which may contribute to shortened longevity of some small parts. I think John Hearne has also commented he's used a P245 as a back up gun, and ended up using it in a class when his P220 broke (I can't remember what broke). I believe his comment was the P245 was difficult enough to shoot, relative to the P220, that he'd take the concealability hit with the P220, so he could have an easier to shoot gun. Hopefully, John Hearne will pop in to correct my errors, if I've made any.

Another point regarding the durability of the entire SIG line-up is the P220 was designed for 9mm and then became a .45 Auto and .38 Super launcher. The P229 was designed as a .40 S&W gun.

Yes, you're exactly right. Todd mentions that the steel framed guns put more stress on the takedown levers. John states, in a general sense, that the quality of the smaller parts has gone down.

A while back, I came across a thread on another forum about how Sig has different standards of quality for LEO officers than it does joe consumer. I wanted to post it here, so I tracked it down... and lo and behold... the post is from John Hearne:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....-thread/page56

Should be the first post on the page.

I mean, wouldn't surprise me. Seems Sig keeps their LEO purchase program very separate from their mainstream sales.

I will say this: my current P239 is a 2006 vintage, and was an off-duty gun for a police officer (per the gun shop owner). After reading that thread, that gave a bit more peace of mind in buying it. It's been a fantastic pistol.

[BehindBlueI's]

My P220 experience was mostly with the W. German ones, and I never broke a part on any of them even after thousands of rounds. I personally believe that many of the parts breakages on the P220 series are a result of operating the pistol dry(unloaded). Lots of dry firing without snap caps, and letting the slide slam forward unloaded. The most common parts breakages on the P220 are the take down lever and locking block. Letting the slide slam home unloaded with no round stripped from the magazine causes considerably more stress on those parts than simply firing the pistol. This is a common practice in the LE community which probably contributes to the P220's poor reputation, particularly in federal agencies. I would consider this to be a "flaw" in the P220 design as many modern designs this is not a problem(HK45, M&P,....etc).

I doubt that I would ever go back to the P220 as a duty pistol, but as a general purpose conceal carry pistol for both people and woods it makes a nice gun if you treat it right. From my own experiences, I would prefer to never carry anything on duty that holds less than 12rds now days. The need for maximizing single hand operation, and having many more rounds on tap than you think you might need seems to be a recurring reality in deadly force situations.

I recall some issues with early stainless P220s as well. Something with the extractor? It's been a minute, and I may not be remembering it right but I *think* it was internal extractor stainless models that had a lot of extraction issues.

I religiously use snap caps with my P220 for dry fire work and slide manipulation.

I'm not sure the round count on my P220 that I carried on duty, but it's 10k-ish. Mostly factory American Eagle and my own reloads. I use to use WST before the Great Powder Drought, and seems like 4.3 gr of WST under a 230 gr pill. It was a pretty soft shooting load, not rough on the gun at all, and functioned great.

[Flintsky]

Honestly, I never really prioritized high round count with CCW. I usually do tote an extra mag with my P239... but you usually hear just a few shots are all you need. Though, if an SD situation escalates into a real gunfight... yeah, I wouldn't want less than 12 rounds either.

My P239 is reserved for concealed carry, and I carry an extra 8rd mag. Generally I hope to retain the element of surprise with that setup, and I am very cautious to display it and announce than I am a LEO(then I become a target). The overwhelming majority of civilian shootings end with only a few shots fired and the aggressor running for their lives. The problem with an open carry weapon(duty or civilian), is that you have painted a target on yourself. While wearing the uniform, we are in the business of cornering armed people. Such people tend to want to fight it out to the death. In those circumstances, that's when you want to maximize your ammo, and single hand skills.

[Flintsky]

I recall some issues with early stainless P220s as well. Something with the extractor? It's been a minute, and I may not be remembering it right but I *think* it was internal extractor stainless models that had a lot of extraction issues.

Yep, the old stainless slides with internal extractors were problematic. Some guys were able to tweak them to get them reliable......I think Grey's Guns offered a special one for a while. The best Sig extractors are still probably the short external machined extractor. Sig reps complained that the most "expensive" part of manufacturing a slide was the cost of cutting the short extractors and the adjoining holes in the slide. Funny though, they stuck this design on the P320.......probably because they knew competition for future polymer pistol contracts depended on as flawless of a submitted pistol as possible. No long MIM extractor on those. Unfortunately the classic DA/SA guns are kinda become a boutique product line with cost cuts applied where ever possible. The police/military market for DA/SA alloy framed guns is dying fast, and there just isn't much in the way of competition between companies for making the most reliable, durable, and best performing pistol in that class at a moderate price point. I can buy a brand new P320 .45acp with night sights and 3 mags for $499. A P220 with the same features is $799.

[MattyD380]

Yep, the old stainless slides with internal extractors were problematic. Some guys were able to tweak them to get them reliable......I think Grey's Guns offered a special one for a while. The best Sig extractors are still probably the short external machined extractor. Sig reps complained that the most "expensive" part of manufacturing a slide was the cost of cutting the short extractors and the adjoining holes in the slide. Funny though, they stuck this design on the P320.......probably because they knew competition for future polymer pistol contracts depended on as flawless of a submitted pistol as possible. No long MIM extractor on those. Unfortunately the classic DA/SA guns are kinda become a boutique product line with cost cuts applied where ever possible. The police/military market for DA/SA alloy framed guns is dying fast, and there just isn't much in the way of competition between companies for making the most reliable, durable, and best performing pistol in that class at a moderate price point. I can buy a brand new P320 .45acp with night sights and 3 mags for $499. A P220 with the same features is $799.

Great points. I've kind of gravitated toward Berettas lately because I still feel like they maintain that military and police standard of quality in a DA/SA platform. Now that they've lost the US military contract... we'll see how long that lasts. Though they still have military contracts around the world... I think.

[Flintsky]

Great points. I've kind of gravitated toward Berettas lately because I still feel like they maintain that military and police standard of quality in a DA/SA platform. Now that they've lost the US military contract... we'll see how long that lasts. Though they still have military contracts around the world... I think.

Yeah, I'm still a believer in the 1990s Sigs.