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Thread: Gun position while running?

  1. #1
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Gun position while running?

    I picked up a tip from a Steve Anderson podcast that I wanted to get opinions on. PF has a high percentage of Timmy's who also game, so this is the exact place to ask this question.

    Anderson advocated keeping the gun up in front of your face while running to help shave some time getting the gun on target as you decelerate into position. I have worked it a bit and it actually feels really good. It does seem to help shave some time and make the deceleration smoother. I usually rotate the gun inboard a bit and get it just under eye level out in front of me. Also, I've taken to walking around the house with my hand in front of my face and aiming on light switches etc, just to ingrain it. Yes, my wife thinks I am crazy! I had to explain to here what I was doing.

    Now, the Timmy in me immediately wondered if this was a totally gamer thing and I worried about reducing visibility while running. To be honest, after practicing it quite a bit, with both eyes open, it didn't seem to be an issue. I guess there is the possibility of smacking oneself in the teeth or face with the the gun if you fell or were struck, so there is that.

    I am wondering if anyone here has give it a try, or does this in competition? I also wonder if you think it is kinda stupid, from a Timmy point of view. It certainly looks stupid, but in practice it just feels faster and smoother and visibility does not seem to be an issue.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Clobbersaurus; 02-09-2017 at 11:07 PM.
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  2. #2
    I know McNamara advised running normally, with the gun in hand, just letting the arms pump as they are. He argued against a high port type carry which I understand Defoor has taught before (magwell facing the direction you're running) due issues with it being an unnatural running position, sights are no longer in the peripheral vision, and the gun itself can block peripheral vision.

    IIRC, Craig Douglas teaches running with your armed locked down to your side, for movement during AMIS.

    I personally run with the gun kinda in a number 2 position, with slight pumping of the gun arm, and regular pumping of the free arm, which is situated in a normal running position. Being in the number 2, it makes it a natural place to get the gun back into position, as it's simply a part of the draw stroke; at the same time, it's not too unnatural (particularly since I will sometimes run with my arms up high during long runs to help minimize fatigue), while also not blocking peripheral vision.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    I think it works for gun games. I don't think it's the proper technique for other situations.

    For gun games, you KNOW you're moving to another shooting position to shoot paper targets. Nobody is going to be there to shoot back at you. For a different situation like running down a long hallway to find and neutralize an active shooter I think it's the wrong technique. Having that gun right up in front of your face minimizes what you can actually see should someone come out of a doorway suddenly.

    The difference between this:
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    Last edited by Lon; 02-10-2017 at 12:28 AM.
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  4. #4
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    No idea why the pics came out that way.
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  5. #5
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    When I've watched gamers run with the gun up in their "workspace", it is not fully aligned to the next target and as I've worked it, it isn't really obscuring what lies ahead. As one is running what is in one's field of view is changing rapidly anyway.

    A lot probably comes down to how much ground are you trying to cover? If PatMac is simply sprinting with normal sprint mechanics that's probably because he is trying haul ass a significant distance to somewhere vs using those mechanics to move 10 feet to a corner of a hallway.

    Considering that the thread is about actually running which one would probably not be doing in a CQB scenario. More like "get out of this parking lot" kind of thing.
    Last edited by JHC; 02-10-2017 at 07:29 AM.
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  6. #6
    Depends on what your are specifically running for, the reason, and what threat is presented.

    I will obviously not touch on competition, as it has rules and there are no rules in reality or da streetz.

    I've done a good bit of real world running with a gun in my hand, specifically chasing people or running from a vehicle to a structure or from structure to structure.

    The simplist concept to understand is, "tip on" which is a blade concept. If you know where your target is, your muzzle should be oriented in that general direction and you should be discriminating targets and threat levels.

    If you need to have your gun out and you need to run, what is the purpose of this? Ask yourself. Is there a BG in the building in front of you? Did a BG just round a corner? Are you chasing a BG through a street and there are people around? Muzzle down is not a good idea, not only is it unnatural to be in that position but it is a potential issue if you fall/trip. Furthermore, anchoring your pistol against a body part is more than likely a good idea. I usually default to a head anchor/index for most of this type of work. I don't want to muzzle anyone and I don't want have my gun low line below my eye line. While running I can have a good index/anchor point off my head and still maintain a good posture.

    Obviously gaming does not have some of these issues, but this is one aspect where gaming does not translate into real life.
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  7. #7
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    First of all, why are you running. Law enforcement runs to fights and sometimes tactically retreats. I think there is nothing wrong with asking LEO's to not run so much with the pistol out. Only when necessary. Will they have a need to run and shoot immediately.

    In competition safety is my responsibility and the safety officer and the range officer and the owner of the range.... The rules are there for everyone's safety. Keeping that pistol pointed at a berm is the best and safe way.

    In real life there is no berm, therefore there is no way and reason to do that. Personally after all the thought processes when running like hell, I just pump my arms naturally and keep my finger off the trigger. I should also ask myself, is this the best way and/or do I really need to be doing this? Running around with a pistol out should be kept to a minimum. Just because I plan on running with the pistol with normal arm movement for running doesn't mean it's totally safe. It doesn't mean a LEO isn't going to shoot me thinking I'm a bad guy. I plan on only running for a short period. I'll either be safe and holster, shot and on the ground or some combination of the two in a relatively. Ultimately is there a chance I will need to run and shoot? If so I run with the gun out. If not, holster and run.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus View Post
    I picked up a tip from a Steve Anderson podcast that I wanted to get opinions on. PF has a high percentage of Timmy's who also game, so this is the exact place to ask this question.

    Anderson advocated keeping the gun up in front of your face while running to help shave some time getting the gun on target as you decelerate into position. I have worked it a bit and it actually feels really good. It does seem to help shave some time and make the deceleration smoother. I usually rotate the gun inboard a bit and get it just under eye level out in front of me. Also, I've taken to walking around the house with my hand in front of my face and aiming on light switches etc, just to ingrain it. Yes, my wife thinks I am crazy! I had to explain to here what I was doing.

    Now, the Timmy in me immediately wondered if this was a totally gamer thing and I worried about reducing visibility while running. To be honest, after practicing it quite a bit, with both eyes open, it didn't seem to be an issue. I guess there is the possibility of smacking oneself in the teeth or face with the the gun if you fell or were struck, so there is that.

    I am wondering if anyone here has give it a try, or does this in competition? I also wonder if you think it is kinda stupid, from a Timmy point of view. It certainly looks stupid, but in practice it just feels faster and smoother and visibility does not seem to be an issue.

    Thoughts?
    Stupid may be overstating it but it seems like a technique that has limited to no utility in the real world. I can't speak to the competitive aspect.
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  9. #9
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin B. View Post
    Stupid may be overstating it but it seems like a technique that has limited to no utility in the real world. I can't speak to the competitive aspect.
    To devil's advocate and expand on understanding its lack of utility :

    1. Is that because there is very little utility in fast running with a drawn pistol anyway? Is that the key?

    2. If there is a real world application for fast running with a drawn pistol to an engagement, it doesn't obscure vision in actual use in my range experience*** and it is fast and efficient to return to shooting so where does it fall apart?

    *** - the position I've seen from gamers and experimented with has the gunhand bladed not quite fully palms down, SHO and at about lower jaw height with the elbow bent about 90 degrees, muzzle downrange. So its fast back out to freestyle much like the modern reload from the "work space".
    Last edited by JHC; 02-10-2017 at 11:34 AM.
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  10. #10
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    As a practical matter, I don't really have occasion to run around in the real world with a gun in my hand. That happens on the range and in matches for me. I generally do what I think JHC is describing - float the gun out a little in SHO, and keep the muzzle in the safest direction under the circumstances, which on the range and in matches is basically straight downrange. Even with the relatively intense movement of running, I think that allows the muzzle to be reasonably confined in direction. Other environments might dictate a more muzzle down or muzzle up position for the gun. One thing I am really stuck on is having unobstructed vision to enable locating and evaluating threats/potential threats/bystanders/environment/etc.

    I actually just recorded a drill the other day which works on shooting into position and starts with me running (pretty short distance in this drill though) with the gun in hand, then mounting the gun and engaging as I'm slowing and stopping. So this is the way I do it currently, but I wouldn't say I'm super attached to any particular technique or method. I do think the underlying elements of unobstructed vision, muzzle control, and confinement posed by the physical environment will largely dictate exact methods and gun positions in specific contexts though.

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