Cleaning standards for ARs

[JDB]

Gents,
I'm trying to find a realistic written standard for cleaning M4s. Situation is that I'm in a line IN company in the guard, and basically every time we shoot (live or blanks), we spend half the day on Sundays cleaning weapons. Which is is how I've always seen it in every (conventional) unit or school in the Army...weapons cleaning is done beyond all reason. For almost all the NCOs and officers there, that's all they've ever known. Since we are mostly weekend soldiers...cleaning weapons eats up an ass-ton of our total time. So does peeing in cups.

So, fortunately my commander is a pretty open minded guy, who is very serious about maximizing training time. So if we could save a bunch of time and still have weapons that worked, he's be all for it.

But to abandon that time honored tradition of cleaning the snot out of guns, I need a clear standard to replace it, in writing.
This will be a mind-bender to a lot of senior NCOs, so best get my ducks in a row.

Any ideas where I could find such a thing? It might be particularly helpful if I could point out that "_____ organization does this", particularly if they are Army.

Thanks

[okie john]

Weapons don't have to be spotless. The problem is that when guys get tired their standards drop for everything. And if the standard was low to begin with, it drops to dangerous levels and you end up with weapons that choke because they're filthy.


Okie John

[JDB]

I get it. The one positive thing about the way we've always done it is it is A standard, and relatively easy to enforce

Example, how do you know the chamber clean enough? When you can stick my pinkie in there and have it come out squeaky clean. Not worth the effort, but it is an enforceable standard. Ditto the barrel, the supply sgt says its clean enough when he can't see any fouling.

I'm not trying to advocate no cleaning, but what we're doing now is akin to detailing a car every time its driven. Really, the thing most soldiers are best trained at is detailing their weapons....they spend more time at it then actually learning how to use it. Also, there's zero maintenance. It drives me nuts. Maybe its a sign I'm getting old, less and less patience for wasted time. That stuff just sucks the life out of me. Also, it makes soldiers not want to shoot, and not want to lube their weapons. Very misplaced priorities. All that time cleaning could be spent on dry-fire and manipulations....sorely needed skill development. Or starting a logbook...tracking round counts, maintenance, zeros, etc.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The gun will run filthy so long as it's well lubed during the process of getting filthy. Pat Rogers spread lots of truth and he showed that a functionally clean weapon, not a white glove weapon was the goal. That functionally clean weapon MUST be well lubed or it will shut down and in my experience with clean, dry guns, that takes about three magazines to start happening.

I may get put in the "burn the witch" category, but you should be able to do an adequate cleaning job in 15 minutes on an AR/M4.

[PNWTO]

I may get put in the "burn the witch" category, but you should be able to do an adequate cleaning job in 15 minutes on an AR/M4.

Agreed.

[JDB]

The gun will run filthy so long as it's well lubed during the process of getting filthy. Pat Rogers spread lots of truth and he showed that a functionally clean weapon, not a white glove weapon was the goal. That functionally clean weapon MUST be well lubed or it will shut down and in my experience with clean, dry guns, that takes about three magazines to start happening.

I may get put in the "burn the witch" category, but you should be able to do an adequate cleaning job in 15 minutes on an AR/M4.

Thanks, totally agree. Its that articulation on functionally clean that I'm looking for. Does anybody have it written down somewhere as a unit SOP/standard?

I get that there will be times when we'll be stuck doing the the traditional white glove clean, like maybe once a year? Apparently when the maintenance guy comes around every 1-2 years, they want it full retard clean...I guess for their barrel gauges?.

However, I see no reason the normal standard shouldn't be "functional clean" at the end of drill.

[Kyle Reese]

Weapons don't have to be spotless. The problem is that when guys get tired their standards drop for everything. And if the standard was low to begin with, it drops to dangerous levels and you end up with weapons that choke because they're filthy.


Okie John

I've run Colt and BCM carbines that only get a cursory annual cleaning and were shot weekly with mil spec ammo. I got excellent service from them, provided that they were well lubed.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[Malamute]

JDB, this link isn't an endorsement of any particular schedule, but as Wayne Dobbs mentioned, Pat Rodgers has shown fairly clearly that it doesn't require meticulous cleaning to function reliably so long as the gun is adequately lubricated. I wouldn't recommend anyone clean at these intervals, but its enlightening.

https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-...ine-filthy-14/

[Jeep]

I don't know if they inspect your rifles/carbines during IG inspections, or how often you are inspected, but I figure that they might want them "spotless," whether it makes sense or not. The IG always had a very big effect on how things were done since the commanders of companies/battalions that failed their IG inspections were routinely relieved from command.

In addition, filthy M-16's used to choke when they were being fired fast on full auto. That was probably at least in part a consequence of the relative lack of lubrication (though even the Army knew they needed more lube for full auto) but it wouldn't surprise me if the carbon fouling added to the problem. Sometime a bit of lube mixed by the action with lots of carbon and a whole lot of heat can bake into a real mess.

If you (properly) only rarely go full auto I wouldn't think that would be a problem. Still I'm of the belief that a (reasonably) clean weapon is a happy weapon.

[ST911]

Gents,
I'm trying to find a realistic written standard for cleaning M4s. Situation is that I'm in a line IN company in the guard, and basically every time we shoot (live or blanks), we spend half the day on Sundays cleaning weapons.

Do you really need to commit something to paper, or can you do this with a little task-leadership? Tell troop he has no more than 30 minutes to get the gun as clean as he can get it. At the end of that period, your designee checks it to ensure it is at least functionally cleaned and lubricated and it goes to the armory.