Shooting On The Move

[Mr_White]

It was quite a coincidence that the 'look or no look at the mag well during reload' thread took a side track to the subject of shooting on the move. I was about to start this thread as a continuation of the discussion that began in the 'dude with a knife' thread in the Romper Room.

So, let's talk shooting on the move.

I was originally taught to step laterally during all non-shooting tasks (draw, reloads, malfunction clearance, etc.)

I've since come around to more of JodyH's point of view, expressed in the reloading thread, that I am more likely to either not move, or move a whole lot.

What do other members here think about this subject?

[Odin Bravo One]

It depends on the circumstances. There are certainly many instances where movement is called for. But there are easily as many situations where movement is physically restricted, you have a moral obligation to hold your position, and/or you are otherwise unable to move for whatever reason. I have also found that in a close range engagement, there are times when movement directly into the threat can also be a much better option than trying to move off the line of attack, or create separation to engage, fix a malfunction, or perform a re-load.

The variables when it comes to tactics are so immeasurable that it is essentially impossible to analyze and have a COA for each situation one could face. Having "Default" programming to move might prove helpful at times, but I have found that a sound decision making process is more valuable in a rapidly changing lethal force environment than a conditioned response. Mindset and training to make those decisions quickly, then executing with decisive aggression will be far more useful over a wider variety of circumstances.

Training to move is certainly wise if that is going to be an option during your decision making process. Can't ignore training to execute the decision. But I won't do it every repetition, or every time I clear a malfunction, conduct a re-load, or otherwise have that situation arise on a static range, lest I allow it to become a conditioned response and execute pre-programmed movement when exactly the opposite is the better decision for a particular set of circumstances.

[JodyH]

{cut-n-paste}
Im a fan of moving off line.
Im just not a fan of ingraining a single step as that movement.
When I practice a side step while drawing, its the first step in a series of steps, not one and done.
Once I start moving I usually don't stop moving until I reach cover or my drill is complete.
{/cut-n-paste}

The way I look at it is this.
Either you have a solid position and you'll stay there and deliver rounds from a static position or you'll take off running and won't stop until you either hit something solid (cover) or you take care of the problem (by either outrunning it or persuading it to leave you alone).
I think the single side step and stop on every draw and every reload is programming you to do just that... a single step and then stop.
A single step doesn't get you off the line of attack unless you are belly button to belly button and even at that range I'd try a side step and then push past them before I went to the gun.
Another potential problem is stepping out of the pan and into the fire so to speak. I'd hate to take a big side step to get away from a gun and get hit by a semi doing 75 down the highway (pay attention LEO's, I'm talking to you with this one).

The movement drills I practice now might start at 2 yards, but by the time I've fired 3-5 rounds I'm at 7-10 yards angling away and still moving.
Or I start at 7 yards and move forward at an angle or laterally.
I sometimes start facing uprange immediately behind the target, sidestep and "flank" the target then shoot it "in the back".
Having a large 360 degree bermed range all to myself does have its training benefits.

[David Armstrong]

IMO shooting on the move does two things: it makes you move slower and shoot worse. Sometimes that is an acceptable compromise but for most situations I either want to move as quickly as possible or shoot to the best of my abilities. Intentionally handicapping both of those seems problematic for maximum success. To build off SeanM a bit, my default is to do what is needed most right then to the best of my ability to do it at that time. Sometimes we need to select another option, but for me the default is what gives the best return on that endeavor. If yo are going to shoot, shoot; if you are going to move, move; if you are going to reload, reload; etc. YMMV.

[Mr_White]

Training to move is certainly wise if that is going to be an option during your decision making process. Can't ignore training to execute the decision. But I won't do it every repetition, or every time I clear a malfunction, conduct a re-load, or otherwise have that situation arise on a static range, lest I allow it to become a conditioned response and execute pre-programmed movement when exactly the opposite is the better decision for a particular set of circumstances.

I was working on a post that made many of the same points you did, but you used many fewer words than I would have, and you speak from a position of experience, whereas I do not, so I'll skip all that.

The above quoted part of your post reminds me of a training anecdote though. As I said, I was originally trained at a school that, beyond the earlier classes, teaches everyone to always take a lateral step during the draw, reloads, malfunction clearance, etc. But because it is training on a line with lots of other students, it's limited to one step.

Sometimes, when demonstrating a reload or malfunction clearance or whatever in a more basic class where the students aren't being trained to step laterally yet, an instructor can't/doesn't stop himself from taking a lateral step, so great is the conditioning to do so. I think that's a simplistic training example of one or yours and JodyH's points.

I sometimes start facing uprange immediately behind the target, sidestep and "flank" the target then shoot it "in the back".
Having a large 360 degree bermed range all to myself does have its training benefits.

Huh, cool coincidence. We just worked on this same thing here, but as a low light drill which started with flashing the target in the face/eyes with our flashlight. Otherwise it was exactly the same as you described.

[JHC]

Thanks much Sean for that reply. Very good stuff.

To the OP - the topic is shooting right? Even though the OP also mentions reloads etc. In my modest experience reloading at full tilt is a LOT easier than shooting with precision at full tilt. And if a target I was shooting at was moving at the crawl I see most move at while making A zone hits, I do not think putting hits on them would be a very challenging shot. [yep, I've never been deliberately shot at, I know but I've got to form a plan.]

I'm not at all certain which is the best general approach although I lean towards the ideas I've seen Paul Howe espouse (and David Armstrong here) - generally, if one has to move then haul ass and if you have to shoot, take cover or otherwise pause to shoot with precision. OTOH, I've made a lot of A zone hits on targets when racing past them at close range <5 yards but that's so easy its intuitively obvious to the casual observer what to do in that situation so Sean's decision making dictum seems to apply there.

I look forward to learning a lot more about this from Ken Hackathorn this weekend in TN.

[Mr_White]

To the OP - the topic is shooting right? Even though the OP also mentions reloads etc.

I mentioned reloading because a tangent of 'movement' was starting in the 'looking at the magwell' thread, so I went ahead and started this one.

It doesn't bother me one little bit to bring gunhandling into it in addition to the marksmanship issues.

[Jay Cunningham]

It depends on the circumstances. There are certainly many instances where movement is called for. But there are easily as many situations where movement is physically restricted, you have a moral obligation to hold your position, and/or you are otherwise unable to move for whatever reason. I have also found that in a close range engagement, there are times when movement directly into the threat can also be a much better option than trying to move off the line of attack, or create separation to engage, fix a malfunction, or perform a re-load.

The variables when it comes to tactics are so immeasurable that it is essentially impossible to analyze and have a COA for each situation one could face. Having "Default" programming to move might prove helpful at times, but I have found that a sound decision making process is more valuable in a rapidly changing lethal force environment than a conditioned response. Mindset and training to make those decisions quickly, then executing with decisive aggression will be far more useful over a wider variety of circumstances.

Training to move is certainly wise if that is going to be an option during your decision making process. Can't ignore training to execute the decision. But I won't do it every repetition, or every time I clear a malfunction, conduct a re-load, or otherwise have that situation arise on a static range, lest I allow it to become a conditioned response and execute pre-programmed movement when exactly the opposite is the better decision for a particular set of circumstances.

Oh man I'm digging this post - I'm ripping down my Twilight poster and putting up a Sean M poster!!

[JFK]

It depends on the circumstances. There are certainly many instances where movement is called for. But there are easily as many situations where movement is physically restricted, you have a moral obligation to hold your position, and/or you are otherwise unable to move for whatever reason. I have also found that in a close range engagement, there are times when movement directly into the threat can also be a much better option than trying to move off the line of attack, or create separation to engage, fix a malfunction, or perform a re-load.
.

I think movement, especially in open spaces is important in defending yourself, or minimizing damage in a force on force situation. Because all creatures must follow the process of 'look - assess - act' this gives you time and advantage. Having said this in the force on force class I have taken moving at an offline, but in the direction of an attacker has often produced favorable results. Not only do they have to look at what I am doing, assess where I am going, but when they act they often have to change direction, or switch balance that give me an edge, however so slight to get a sight picture, reload or just get some distance in between.

Of course this is not for every situation, but just what I have noticed in my limited experience.

[Joseph B.]

It depends on the circumstances. There are certainly many instances where movement is called for. But there are easily as many situations where movement is physically restricted, you have a moral obligation to hold your position, and/or you are otherwise unable to move for whatever reason. I have also found that in a close range engagement, there are times when movement directly into the threat can also be a much better option than trying to move off the line of attack, or create separation to engage, fix a malfunction, or perform a re-load.

The variables when it comes to tactics are so immeasurable that it is essentially impossible to analyze and have a COA for each situation one could face. Having "Default" programming to move might prove helpful at times, but I have found that a sound decision making process is more valuable in a rapidly changing lethal force environment than a conditioned response. Mindset and training to make those decisions quickly, then executing with decisive aggression will be far more useful over a wider variety of circumstances.

Training to move is certainly wise if that is going to be an option during your decision making process. Can't ignore training to execute the decision. But I won't do it every repetition, or every time I clear a malfunction, conduct a re-load, or otherwise have that situation arise on a static range, lest I allow it to become a conditioned response and execute pre-programmed movement when exactly the opposite is the better decision for a particular set of circumstances.

Good post!

ETA:

My personal view is that shooting accurately on the move (especially with a pistol) is the hardest level of marksmanship to achieve. It is worst case, and it something that requires dedication of training. Is it something for all situations, no but it’s a tool that needs to be in the tool box.

SeanM, hit the nail on the head, and I wanted to add to the “moving on the threat” part. There is a major psychological affect that takes place when you are being charged (someone moving on you), being shot at brings the adrenaline, stress and fear up, but being charged with someone shooting at you is puts it into overdrive. When a threat initiates an attack he has the upper hand as you are now having to see it, control your fear, decide on how to react and then act. The threat has already decided, already committed, but you can still push that threat into a fearful state (flight mode). Overwhelming aggression, instead of turning and running for cover, instead of standing like deer caught in the headlights, you return fire and start closing the distance, etc. It’s surprising how effective it can be. But that option is not always there…

I remember being trained to take a knee to reload and or correct stoppages. This was SOP in my unit and ingrained, however, during sims training we found that our guys were mostly being tagged during reloads and or stoppages (taking a knee and fixing their weapon). We started playing around with it and found the best option was to haul ass to cover, and do it from a position of cover. However that is not always an option either, you may not always have cover, you may not always have the ability to run and get behind something.

So I think it boils down to having developed skills on moving to cover, doing it while moving, doing it while standing static, etc, etc. When you have the skill sets, you can allow your situational awareness and critical thinking take over the big decisions of “do I stand and fight, do I move, do I run” etc. That said I would not ingrain a step off the line every time I did something, I would probably practice it a few times and then practice other things, etc. As pointed out above there are good reasons to not just automatically step during the draw, reload, stoppage.