Guns and England

[fishing]

You've made your point, but I doubt it's the one you wanted to.

As many bodies as Chicago clocks nowadays, CPD foot patrol officers are a long ways from packing submachine guns on the Magnificent Mile or Navy Pier.

The security situation across the pond must be dire indeed if the rabidly anti-gun British government are posting HK SMG armed officers near the tourist traps. Ive only seen that kind of publicly displayed weaponry stateside at air shows- notably in the hands of military police. Even then the civilian LE and OSI wore pistols.

If the informed souls that work public security won't spend 8 hours somewhere without an SMG handy and a buddy with a similar weapon, it's not a place GardoneVT needs to be at all -armed or not.

GVT - perhaps a bit of reading is in order?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police...United_Kingdom

My understanding and experience (nothing serious, just having spent some time in GB on business and for leisure) is that the majority of police officers are still unarmed in GB - those that have weapons are selected and trained additionally.

I haven't studied or thought about it enough to have a well formed opinion on it - but it is definitely different than the norm here in the states.

Frankly, I find your statement about informed souls a bit laughable. I'd think it a good thing if any and all informed souls working public security here in the US carried atleast an SMG, no matter big city or small town, if they were trained to the level of competency of the armed officers in GB at a minimum.

[Luger]

I`ve never done policing in the UK. But it isn`t uncommon for german police to carry the MP5 when guarding places like airports, government buildings or other endangered places. After the truck attack in Berlin the MP5 was carried on chrismas markets, too.

But I can`t remember one single incident within the past 20 years, where an officer standing guard had to shoot someone. I think carrying the MP5 it is more about show of forces.

[Kirk]

You've made your point, but I doubt it's the one you wanted to.

As many bodies as Chicago clocks nowadays, CPD foot patrol officers are a long ways from packing submachine guns on the Magnificent Mile or Navy Pier.

The security situation across the pond must be dire indeed if the rabidly anti-gun British government are posting HK SMG armed officers near the tourist traps. Ive only seen that kind of publicly displayed weaponry stateside at air shows- notably in the hands of military police. Even then the civilian LE and OSI wore pistols.

If the informed souls that work public security won't spend 8 hours somewhere without an SMG handy and a buddy with a similar weapon, it's not a place GardoneVT needs to be at all -armed or not.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I think it may be misinformed.

In the U.K., I've seen guys with MP5s at the Palace and a couple of other similar places. It's most probably a show of force. The vast majority of police in London are unarmed. I'm not sure how their anti-terror posture relates at all to typical city crime (which is relatively low).

Regardless, I'm certainly not defending the way they do things there. I don't know enough about it to offer an educated opinion. I currently live in a suburb in America and carry a gun every day, so it's going to be strange. Luckily I've competed in BJJ and trained in MMA for years prior to now (I'm somewhat out of shape these days ), so I need to start training again and knocking the rust off since I won't be able to carry there.

[HCM]

I`ve never done policing in the UK. But it isn`t uncommon for german police to carry the MP5 when guarding places like airports, government buildings or other endangered places. After the truck attack in Berlin the MP5 was carried on chrismas markets, too.

But I can`t remember one single incident within the past 20 years, where an officer standing guard had to shoot someone. I think carrying the MP5 it is more about show of forces.

Luger,

I don't know if you have ever seen the Movie "Die Hard" but it is the first thing which comes to mind for most Americans when you mention "Christmas" and "MP5's" in the same context.

Years ago I had a discussion with a cop in Italy about public perceptions and how it in America it is considered "normal" for cops to use shotguns but SMGs were viewed as extreme and militarization vs Europe where it is considered "normal" for cops to have SMGs and police use of shotguns was considered extreme and even inhumane and restricted to SWAT.

[HCM]

I understand what you are trying to say, but I think it may be misinformed.

In the U.K., I've seen guys with MP5s at the Palace and a couple of other similar places. It's most probably a show of force. The vast majority of police in London are unarmed. I'm not sure how their anti-terror posture relates at all to typical city crime (which is relatively low).

Regardless, I'm certainly not defending the way they do things there. I don't know enough about it to offer an educated opinion. I currently live in a suburb in America and carry a gun every day, so it's going to be strange. Luckily I've competed in BJJ and trained in MMA for years prior to now (I'm somewhat out of shape these days ), so I need to start training again and knocking the rust off since I won't be able to carry there.

If by "the city" you mean central London then yes overall it is pretty safe just like certain parts of Manhattan in post Giuliani NYC are safe. The authorities make these areas a priority because of money, business and tourism interests. Don't take that to mean all of London is safe. Street crime and gangs of muggers with edged weapons are a significant problem.

Another thing to keep in mind is how crime statistics are counted. For example, the UK's purported low homicide rate is due to the fact a murder is not listed as a homicide in UK crime statistics unless someone is arrested and convicted of the offense.

So for example, Chicago had 762 muderers in 2016 and Chicago police have a clearance rate of about 30% so by U.K. standards Chicagos crime stats would only show 228 murders.

A more detailed explanation is found here: http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/...der-rates.html

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When I was in England in the 80's, I looked out of the window of my plane at the airport and a Scorpion tank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV101_Scorpion) rolled by.

Just saying.

[Luger]

Luger,

I don't know if you have ever seen the Movie "Die Hard" but it is the first thing which comes to mind for most Americans when you mention "Christmas" and "MP5's" in the same context.

Years ago I had a discussion with a cop in Italy about public perceptions and how it in America it is considered "normal" for cops to use shotguns but SMGs were viewed as extreme and militarization vs Europe where it is considered "normal" for cops to have SMGs and police use of shotguns was considered extreme and even inhumane and restricted to SWAT.

Of course I have.
Most european police forces originate from or are still part of the military (for example the French Gendarmerie Nationale, italian Carabinieri, spanish Guardia Civil). So military weapons and uniforms where allways part of their equipment. During the cold war the german Bundesgrenzschutz and Bereitschaftspolizei (strictly civilian police forces, since the Bundeswehr may not be used for policing in germany) where even issued MGs, hand grenades, APCs and mortars.
A funny fact is, that many germans today see the decentralized US police with elected officials as a lot more militarized, than our own centralized state police forces.

[Kirk]

If by "the city" you mean central London then yes overall it is pretty safe just like certain parts of Manhattan in post Giuliani NYC are safe. The authorities make these areas a priority because of money, business and tourism interests. Don't take that to mean all of London is safe. Street crime and gangs of muggers with edged weapons are a significant problem.

Another thing to keep in mind is how crime statistics are counted. For example, the UK's purported low homicide rate is due to the fact a murder is not listed as a homicide in UK crime statistics unless someone is arrested and convicted of the offense.

So for example, Chicago had 762 muderers in 2016 and Chicago police have a clearance rate of about 30% so by U.K. standards Chicagos crime stats would only show 228 murders.

A more detailed explanation is found here: http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/...der-rates.html

Very interesting!! I had no idea.

Gang of muggers with edged weapons seems like an absolute doomsday scenario when armed only with a single edged weapon. On the "this sucks!" scale, that is a 10.1.

[HCM]

Very interesting!! I had no idea.

Gang of muggers with edged weapons seems like an absolute doomsday scenario when armed only with a single edged weapon. On the "this sucks!" scale, that is a 10.1.

You may want to research England and Londons legal standards for self defense and knife laws. They are different than the U.S.. I would consider a cane or a high end walking stick if you can pull it off.

Culturally, the U.K. is still a violent culture like the U.S., at least among the lower classes. Home invasions and night time burglaries are also a significant problem.

[Kirk]

You may want to research England and Londons legal standards for self defense and knife laws. They are different than the U.S.. I would consider a cane or a high end walking stick if you can pull it off.

Culturally, the U.K. is still a violent culture like the U.S., at least among the lower classes. Home invasions and night time burglaries are also a significant problem.

I've researched their knife laws some, but I may call the London PD for more specific information. In a nutshell, the blades have to basically be small and relatively useless. I also need to find out more regarding their legal standards too. I may contact our lawyer there and see if he can point me in the right direction on these things (specifically self-defense law), I'll post them here if anyone is interested.