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Thread: Dave Grossman Seminar

  1. #31
    Honestly, this is where we are hurting ourselves with all the current trends of "you have to have PTSD". This is in no way to diminish actual cases of PTSD, but I for one am sick and tired of the long growing trend of telling everyone how bad they need to feel and how psychologically harmed they are if they have to use lethal force to save their life. The best thing that ever happened to me in this regard was not the Ayoob stuff, later Grossman, and others, or the cop shrinks, but the old guys. See, there was a time where the grizzled old guys with time in combat or who had done righteous violence on crooks would pull you aside and tell you what you did was good, and you didn't need to feel bad about it. That helped far more than much of the other crap. Also.....I made a significant change in my place by being crystal clear in training that you may have to make a decision to use lethal force to save your life or the life of others as part of firearms training on mindset. Even used the "Kill" word, and was very blunt about it. We really looked after our own with the folks who had been in shootings taking some time to talk to those just in them. I had a Vietnam vet with a ton of combat time at my place who had been a cop for pushing three decades tell me after training that my class was the first time in his career anyone ever came out and said that you might have to kill someone and that it was sorely needed. Grossman's stuff does not help. It does not help to ground cops who are able to use lethal force and figure out how to do it without becoming a raging alcoholic or basket case. We have folks in the military who are damn good at being efficient in war and not turning into mental basketcases. We should be tapping into those folks instead of ostracizing them or silenceing them because they don't feel bad enough or become "disabled".

    Sorry for the rant, but it is a subject that simply pisses me off. We needed to develop a "kill switch" in folks, and teach them how to turn it on and off, rather than try to constantly disable it in everyone.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Honestly, this is where we are hurting ourselves with all the current trends of "you have to have PTSD". This is in no way to diminish actual cases of PTSD, but I for one am sick and tired of the long growing trend of telling everyone how bad they need to feel and how psychologically harmed they are if they have to use lethal force to save their life. The best thing that ever happened to me in this regard was not the Ayoob stuff, later Grossman, and others, or the cop shrinks, but the old guys. See, there was a time where the grizzled old guys with time in combat or who had done righteous violence on crooks would pull you aside and tell you what you did was good, and you didn't need to feel bad about it. That helped far more than much of the other crap. Also.....I made a significant change in my place by being crystal clear in training that you may have to make a decision to use lethal force to save your life or the life of others as part of firearms training on mindset. Even used the "Kill" word, and was very blunt about it. We really looked after our own with the folks who had been in shootings taking some time to talk to those just in them. I had a Vietnam vet with a ton of combat time at my place who had been a cop for pushing three decades tell me after training that my class was the first time in his career anyone ever came out and said that you might have to kill someone and that it was sorely needed. Grossman's stuff does not help. It does not help to ground cops who are able to use lethal force and figure out how to do it without becoming a raging alcoholic or basket case. We have folks in the military who are damn good at being efficient in war and not turning into mental basketcases. We should be tapping into those folks instead of ostracizing them or silenceing them because they don't feel bad enough or become "disabled".

    Sorry for the rant, but it is a subject that simply pisses me off. We needed to develop a "kill switch" in folks, and teach them how to turn it on and off, rather than try to constantly disable it in everyone.
    Agree, but we know that doesn't exist in many PD's
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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Honestly, this is where we are hurting ourselves with all the current trends of "you have to have PTSD". This is in no way to diminish actual cases of PTSD, but I for one am sick and tired of the long growing trend of telling everyone how bad they need to feel and how psychologically harmed they are if they have to use lethal force to save their life. The best thing that ever happened to me in this regard was not the Ayoob stuff, later Grossman, and others, or the cop shrinks, but the old guys. See, there was a time where the grizzled old guys with time in combat or who had done righteous violence on crooks would pull you aside and tell you what you did was good, and you didn't need to feel bad about it. That helped far more than much of the other crap. Also.....I made a significant change in my place by being crystal clear in training that you may have to make a decision to use lethal force to save your life or the life of others as part of firearms training on mindset. Even used the "Kill" word, and was very blunt about it. We really looked after our own with the folks who had been in shootings taking some time to talk to those just in them. I had a Vietnam vet with a ton of combat time at my place who had been a cop for pushing three decades tell me after training that my class was the first time in his career anyone ever came out and said that you might have to kill someone and that it was sorely needed. Grossman's stuff does not help. It does not help to ground cops who are able to use lethal force and figure out how to do it without becoming a raging alcoholic or basket case. We have folks in the military who are damn good at being efficient in war and not turning into mental basketcases. We should be tapping into those folks instead of ostracizing them or silenceing them because they don't feel bad enough or become "disabled".

    Sorry for the rant, but it is a subject that simply pisses me off. We needed to develop a "kill switch" in folks, and teach them how to turn it on and off, rather than try to constantly disable it in everyone.
    During the presentation / initial AAR that started this thread.... Regarding PTS / PTSD this may be another one of the ways Grossman is changing his tune....here was my take on what he said about the above subject.

    Grossman basically said that PTS and PTSD statitistcs are way over blown, especially from the media and depending on which way that media outlet leans will use those loose statistics to smear the current war.

    He spoke about why some people get PTSD and why some people don't, even though some people will have "normal" reactions / PTS "Symptoms" after a traumatic experience that fade with time and processing of the event.

    He also stated why some people never have any of those feelings and credited that to training, mindset, resiliency, motivation, faith, etc.

    I actually thought his PTS/D portion of his talk was pretty good. For reference - Iam still serving, fully returned to duty after losing a leg, we have great psych docs where I work, and I know a lot of guys that have seen a lot of combat. None of that makes me an expert, just some experience to extrapulate the information that Grossman gave us.

    As I said earlier, not a Grossman Fanboy, just following up on the AAR and my experience w/ his presentation.

    Jeremy

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by KneeShot View Post
    During the presentation / initial AAR that started this thread.... Regarding PTS / PTSD this may be another one of the ways Grossman is changing his tune....here was my take on what he said about the above subject.

    Grossman basically said that PTS and PTSD statitistcs are way over blown, especially from the media and depending on which way that media outlet leans will use those loose statistics to smear the current war.

    He spoke about why some people get PTSD and why some people don't, even though some people will have "normal" reactions / PTS "Symptoms" after a traumatic experience that fade with time and processing of the event.

    He also stated why some people never have any of those feelings and credited that to training, mindset, resiliency, motivation, faith, etc.

    I actually thought his PTS/D portion of his talk was pretty good. For reference - Iam still serving, fully returned to duty after losing a leg, we have great psych docs where I work, and I know a lot of guys that have seen a lot of combat. None of that makes me an expert, just some experience to extrapulate the information that Grossman gave us.

    As I said earlier, not a Grossman Fanboy, just following up on the AAR and my experience w/ his presentation.

    Jeremy
    Jeremy, I do appreciate the current info. It does seem like Col. Grossman has changed his tune over time. The reality that I have found from attending three prior lectures and presentations from him is that a bunch of his stuff taken as gospel early was found to be utter crap when we really took a very hard look at it. Now, lord knows as I got older and wiser in this business, what I teach has certainly evolved, but it is hard to wrap my head around what Col. Grossman is doing at this point as far as how much it is helping or is it taking the place of much more relevant and valuable training because executive management level folks love the stuff.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  5. #35
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    I attended the Sheepdog Church Security Seminar on Saturday with Grossman, Carl Chinn and Jimmy Meeks. Grossman spoke for about 3 hours of the 8 hour conference. I attended with my wife and thought it would be good for her to be exposed to this stuff from someone other than me. Plus it was in my town, was only 79$ and it beat the heck out of being at work.

    I won't rehash the whole thing here, just mention a few things. I have read On Combat, On Killing, and Warrior Mindset so I kind of knew what I'd probably be getting. And just because I have read those books does not mean I necessarily agree with everything in them....it just means I read a lot of books so I can speak somewhat intelligently to students about the authors' books. So here are just a few tidbits. This was a mix of police and non sworn personnel so this presentation might be a little different than when it is .mil or leo only...or civilian only for that matter......The stuff I'm about to mention is not in any way me "defending" anything ...it is just posed for your consideration as I heard it from his presentation 2 days ago. Don't have my notes in front of me so here is a little from memory......

    No matter what his previous position might have been he says he is for concealed carry. As to school security he promotes the idea of armed teachers/armed parents as a deterrent. Obviously you should not arm all teachers (or all people for that matter) but if the killers (he does not like to call them shooters) know that SOMEONE and likely many someones in the school are armed then they will be less likely to try anything. Gun free zones are criminal security zones. Thinks school bus attacks could be coming and recommends an armed parent/grandparent riding the bus with the kids. He mentions fighting with pistols sucks and if possible a rifle with a go bag makes more sense especially for responding police officers. Mentions the school resource officer at Columbine who expended all of his ammo (3 pistol mags) at 50 yards away with no effect and was a bystander for the rest of the event. Mentioned a rifle armed response group that is part of a church security team in a mega church in Montana.

    He somewhat sarcastically says he "likes open carry"........because those people are "decoys"...... and will draw the attention of the bad guys away from everyone else.

    Suggested you be armed all the time. Never know when something will happen and you will be called on to defend loved ones.

    He did talk a bit about video games and his contention was that we have more violent children in America than ever and that entertainment is a contributor to the problem. America has always had violence in entertainment but not the ability to submerge yourself into it by watching it over and over and over again at home like you have been able to for the last 30 years. You couldn't watch movies like Natural Born Killers 100 times until the technology was there to allow it in the 80s . The school "massacres" did not begin with any regularity until the 1990s and he attributes some of that to kids immersing themselves in violent TV and video games. Garbage in...garbage out..... and teens don't have fully developed impulse control yet or a real concept for the results of violence.

    Bullying is a real problem leading to depression and suicide and or homicide. Made worse by social media and by texts so the kids can never get away from it. Suggested no computer in kids rooms and don't let 'em go to bed with cell phone ...correlation between lack of sleep and depression. Cited study from Stanford about turning off the TV for 10 days being good for you.

    Heavy emphasis on getting trained (all the speakers emphasized it). Emphasis on setting high standards and improving on them if you plan to respond in a critical incident. The skills to use the gun don't come in the box with the gun. Personally I was glad they put such an emphasis on it. Too many people get their CCW and think they are ready to respond to ....anything.

    Mentioned the old "98% are reluctant to kill and 2% are not". But instead of just simply calling that 2 percent "psychopaths" (like he did in On Killing) he divided it into 1% psychopaths (wolves) and 1% as "resilient" (sheepdogs) . That 1% are well adjusted enough to know that taking a life is necessary under certain circumstances and will not be adversely effected psychologically or emotionally by it. This is one thing I had never liked about his stuff that it came across as you are not "normal" if you are not frightened into inaction by the possibility of having to kill another human....and anyone that is willing to do what needs to be done is a psychopath. There is a difference between being willing to do violence to others and eager to inflict it on others.....so I was happier to see him show at least some differentiation between the two.

    Did he "market" his books in his lecture? Of course. But not any worse than any number of other people market products or books in their classes. I'm not anyone's fan-boy but it did not really offend me either. I don't get mad at the car salesman for trying to sell me a car. I just try to take what I find useful, ignore the rest , and go back to living my life and buy a book if it looks interesting. Full disclosure...I bought his new book Assassination Nation. What can I say I'm a bookworm.

    Carl Chinn gave a lecture about his involvement in both the Focus on the Family hostage situation in 1996 and the New Life Church Shooting in 2007 in Colorado Springs. As an aside, Carl mentioned that in the middle of the gunfight at the New Life Church as he hunkered down behind a pillar that was getting chewed up by 5.56 fire that he decided his choice of a kel tec .32 was less than optimal against the bad guy's AR15.....so carry a real gun if you plan to be a responder to an incident. He always assumed that since he did Pastor Security he'd be using his gun at arms length to 5 yards.. But the fight does not always conform to your preconceived notions.

    Jimmy Meeks spoke on the importance of training and on sexual crime (especially in youth groups and child victims) in churches.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 01-16-2017 at 04:07 PM.

  6. #36
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert, and I don't have a PhD, but I may have found the topic for discussion at the TLG Memorial shoot in March.......
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  7. #37
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean M View Post
    I'm not an expert, and I don't have a PhD, but I may have found the topic for discussion at the TLG Memorial shoot in March.......
    Sounds good to me, dude.
    3/15/2016

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I do not discount the video game stuff. I just don't agree with it being a new or different thing. Humans need to kill to survive. Usually it is animals, at times it is other humans. All cultures need to desensitize to killing. In many cultures, kids have been watching animals getting killed since birth. Even traditions regarding a first kill with eating of the heart of an animal are meant to desensitize the process. Giving children jobs like the skinning, slaughtering, cleaning and preparation of animals for eating is all related to this process. Looking at kids in a modern culture where things to eat are killed and processed by others, a culture where they do not see death from war, raiding, or clan or tribal rivalries, the video game is simply another desensitization process for a technological culture. Same culture that has perfected the art of killing with drones and video guided munitions. Those video games can be both good and bad depending on the "culture" they are used in and the supervision around them.
    Some of these traditions are still practiced in the U.S.. Down here in 'ol Bamy my cousins and I were all "blooded" after our first deer kill. While there are variations, we smear a large handful of fresh deer blood on each cheek of the kid's face.

    Eta: It was awesome.
    Last edited by Caballoflaco; 01-16-2017 at 09:53 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Jeremy, I do appreciate the current info. It does seem like Col. Grossman has changed his tune over time. The reality that I have found from attending three prior lectures and presentations from him is that a bunch of his stuff taken as gospel early was found to be utter crap when we really took a very hard look at it. Now, lord knows as I got older and wiser in this business, what I teach has certainly evolved, but it is hard to wrap my head around what Col. Grossman is doing at this point as far as how much it is helping or is it taking the place of much more relevant and valuable training because executive management level folks love the stuff.
    I have had the opportunity to hear a presentation from Col. Grossman in the relatively recent past.

    I can confirm that he has adjusted his tune by saying "its ok to kill people." He emphasized that from a Judeo-Christian point of view, the scriptures are best translated that you shall not murder.

    That said, I was not happy with his presentation overall. There were good points of solid truth, but it was diluted with material that ranged from inert, to actively false and actually harmful. There were however, some stirring moments of motivation.

    The bone that I had in particular, was his approach to PTSD. He tried to have his cake and eat it too, but he vastly over-simplifies how PTSD or regular post traumatic stress works. He also implies that you can prevent PTSD by using certain coping mechanisms and inoculating oneself by developing resiliency. He also emphasized that if you need treatment, you should go get treatment. It is hard to coherently send both a message that you can train for and prevent PTSD if you have the right approach, while also saying that there is no shame in getting the professional treatment that you need to overcome severe shell shock. It implicitly implies that getting PTSD or symptoms of it is a sign of weakness or a failure to adequately train. This is the mindset that we need to overcome to cut down on officer/veteran suicides by de-stigmatizing mental health care. He tried to walk the line (I believe he literally drew a line between 'the victim complex' and 'the macho man'), but I think that his more sensationalized approach failed. I have had other training opportunities (admittedly over a 2 day course) that were exponentially better at covering the issues, treatment, and basic level self and buddy aid.

    During other, less notable sections of his presentation he covered the importance of rest, training, the sheepdog analogy, and a number of other subjects. His material about the state of the world and the nature of conflict and violence was not at a standard that I was comfortable with. He played fast and loose with using absolute data, vs per capita data, vs percent changes, and he over simplified a number of fairly complex international trends and incidents in a way that I feel did a dis-service to the material. Stephen Pinker would have wiped the floor with him in a debate on rising/falling levels of violence using the material from The Better Angels of our Nature (a book that I wrote a 25 page paper rebuttal of during grad school)

    On a separate note, he plays to the audience by playing up a narrative of media deception and included some religious over/undertones. There were also many prominent references to various books that he has written or recommends. These things may or may not bother you.

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