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Thread: AIWB and the 1911

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK14 View Post
    Thanks in part to the current various 320 and 1911 threads, I’m resurrecting this guy.

    As I was sitting there with a series 70 1911 in AIWB talking with a coworker about how we no longer are authorized to carry 320s, or really want to due to the alleged potential of it going off, I started thinking. What’s keeping this gun from going off?

    In my understanding, the sear is engaged with the hammer hooks, with the sear partially held in place thanks to the thumb safety being on. IF somehow the sear slipped, hopefully the half-cock notch would catch and prevent a boom.

    Is that correct? Is that enough safety measure? What’s the failure point, the sear face, or the sear pin? The internals are all factory Springfield Mim. Now I’m considering a rebuild with tool steel for peace of mind.

    In addition to the nuisance of the technique discussed in this thread, is AIWB of a series 70 safe in the groups opinion?
    So on a 1911, the thumb safety pretty literally clamps the sear to the hammer. The only way it's going to go off is if the sear literally crumbles/breaks; even then since the sear is being clamped to the hammer, the hammer will rotate down to the safety notch/"half cock" where it'll be stopped by the remanent of the sear. This is why it's imperative that the thumb safety actually be well fit to the hammer/sear combo, the detent spring that holds the thumb safety up be in good repair, and the notch in the thumb safety that the detent rests in be well defined.

    So long as the thumb safety is fit correctly, when the thumb safety is engaged, there's pretty much no way of inducing an accidental discharge via parts failure unless an extreme set of circumstances pops up (like the sear and thumb safety both crumble to dust at the same time).

    This, btw, is also why I've settled on not carrying a 1911 unless it's a Colt Series 80, with it's firing pin safety. Kimber's implementation of the Swartz safety is pretty terrible and pretty easily mistimed out of the factory, and Smith's setup isn't much better since they also rely on the grip safety deactivating the firing pin safety. Colt's setup times it off of the trigger...and while it can be mistimed, it's also a fairly easy fix to understand and implement. C&S even sells the appropriate bits. While I have faith that the thumb safety will correctly do it's job, having the firing pin safety adds that little extra peace of mind...not to mention making it a whole lot more drop safe.
    Last edited by Evil_Ed; 11-12-2022 at 01:43 PM. Reason: clarified what'll stop the hammer

  2. #72
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK14 View Post
    Thanks in part to the current various 320 and 1911 threads, I’m resurrecting this guy.

    As I was sitting there with a series 70 1911 in AIWB talking with a coworker about how we no longer are authorized to carry 320s, or really want to due to the alleged potential of it going off, I started thinking. What’s keeping this gun from going off?

    In my understanding, the sear is engaged with the hammer hooks, with the sear partially held in place thanks to the thumb safety being on. IF somehow the sear slipped, hopefully the half-cock notch would catch and prevent a boom.

    Is that correct? Is that enough safety measure? What’s the failure point, the sear face, or the sear pin? The internals are all factory Springfield Mim. Now I’m considering a rebuild with tool steel for peace of mind.

    In addition to the nuisance of the technique discussed in this thread, is AIWB of a series 70 safe in the groups opinion?
    Review Here: https://www.wideopenspaces.com/how-a...s-infographic/

    The sear and hammer are both held in place with the thumb safety and the grip safety does not allow the trigger bar to touch the sear spring.

    IF, magically, the sear pin broke, allowing the sear to cam out, if the thumb safety was simultaneously on the hammer would not drop. The hammer would drop if you then pushed the thumb safety down. This is one reason why it is imperative to not release the thumb safety until you are on the push out with the gun (also why if you're doing admin handling to keep the gun in a safe direction). Also why it is important for AIWB to run a shield on your holster (edited to correct this) that prevents the thumb safety from disengaging.

    The hammer rides on a separate pin from the sear, so sear pin failure will not result in hammer pin failure. That's by design to prevent a single failure point from resulting in issues.

    I would not be concerned about MIM vs. Tool steel. Once in awhile disassemble the gun and check the sear engagement surfaces and hammer hooks. I doubt you'll see significant wear on them until you've got ~40K+ rounds through them. I've never seen a broken 1911 sear. It's possible and undoubtedly has happened, but as far as general failures go, you're way more likely to lose the plunger tube, crack a slider release, crack the frame than break a sear. Hammer hooks are similar and engagement surfaces are deep and notchy. Guns with significant trigger jobs can get 'slippy' if the hammer notches and sear are stoned too fine and that is why we don't recommend 'breathe on it and it goes off' triggers on carried 1911s.

    TL;DR - What is keeping your 1911 from going off? A thumb safety, a hardened sear (MIM parts are hardened), a hardened set of hammer hooks, hardened pins (sear and hammer), a grip safety prevents your trigger from tripping the sear. Which still can't be done, if the thumb safety is set.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 11-12-2022 at 02:18 PM.

  3. #73
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    On Drop Safety - S70, S80, Schwartz - Can all pass the SAAMI 'Abusive Mishandling' standard which includes multiple drop tests from a height of 4'.

    With an S70, a titanium firing pin + heaving FP spring will make them as drop safe as anything else. I'd check, because IIRC Springfield uses exactly this setup in their guns. You can determine if the FP is titanium with a magnet (titanium is non-magnetic).

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK14 View Post
    is AIWB of a series 70 safe in the groups opinion?
    I carry a 1911 without a firing pin safety AIWB all the time, and I feel confident in the redundant safeties for reasons already explained by Evil_Ed and RevolverRob. The Colt Series 80 mechanism does provide an additional level of safety and is the best of the 1911 firing pin safeties in my opinion, but I don't feel it is a necessity.

    One thing I definitely agree with Evil_Ed about is the fitment of the thumb safety. I have fit several thumb safeties to guns and it is essential to shape the sear engagement lug properly in order to get both a nicely operating safety and a safe gun.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    On Drop Safety - S70, S80, Schwartz - Can all pass the SAAMI 'Abusive Mishandling' standard which includes multiple drop tests from a height of 4'.

    With an S70, a titanium firing pin + heaving FP spring will make them as drop safe as anything else. I'd check, because IIRC Springfield uses exactly this setup in their guns. You can determine if the FP is titanium with a magnet (titanium is non-magnetic).

    Here are results from a series of drop test.

    I would feel better with a FP safety, but few 1911s have them.

    http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm

  6. #76
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    Here are results from a series of drop test.

    I would feel better with a FP safety, but few 1911s have them.

    http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm
    Yes, I've reviewed those data. I'm honestly not sure how people drop a pistol from 5-6 feet in the air. But basically you have to be at that level before it becomes a problem with a Ti firing pin and heavy spring.

    I'm sure some folks have 60" inseams, but not me nor anyone I know. If you're going to be working on/around ladders, you might want a FP safety or a holster with active retention.

  7. #77
    Thanks all for the responses. Classic case where knowledge helps alleviate worry. Feeling a lot more confident now that I’ve got a better understanding on how it all works! I need to get into a basic armorer class soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Yes, I've reviewed those data. I'm honestly not sure how people drop a pistol from 5-6 feet in the air. But basically you have to be at that level before it becomes a problem with a Ti firing pin and heavy spring.

    I'm sure some folks have 60" inseams, but not me nor anyone I know. If you're going to be working on/around ladders, you might want a FP safety or a holster with active retention.
    I’m 6’, my eye line is about 5’8 ish. So, if I’m drawing my gun, and something interrupts that, the 5/6 foot height isn’t too hard to see. My understanding is that in that scenario, the gun would have to basically land perfectly muzzle down to inertia fire though, alleviating at least some degree of the hazard? Still best avoided.

    I have a steel firing pin. I’ll look into a titanium one though. Are there any disadvantages to Ti firing pins?

  8. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by BK14 View Post
    Are there any disadvantages to Ti firing pins?
    Light strikes. Lower momentum than a stock setup since the Ti pin is almost half the weight of its steel counterpart. Note that they are also mated to XP firing pin springs to pass states' drop tests, so pin's velocity is also lower than with a standard spring. Also worth noting that Oldham's drop testing was done with XP spring as well that should have afforded some benefit.

    Yes, the gun has to land vertically on the muzzle. I personally think that this is the reason why we haven't heard of as many drop discharges with 1911s. Having dropped my guns more times than I would admit, I never observed any of them, even front end heavy types, land vertically on the muzzle end. That said, my carry-worthy 1911 is series 80.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by BK14 View Post

    I have a steel firing pin. I’ll look into a titanium one though. Are there any disadvantages to Ti firing pins?
    The light pins can lead to light strikes, or make a heavier hammer spring necessary which can lead to slow slide speeds. You'll just have to try it out.

  10. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Yes, the gun has to land vertically on the muzzle. I personally think that this is the reason why we haven't heard of as many drop discharges with 1911s. Having dropped my guns more times than I would admit, I never observed any of them, even front end heavy types, land vertically on the muzzle end. That said, my carry-worthy 1911 is series 80.
    I think @Wayne Dobbs has some experience with this.

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