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Thread: Hudson H9

  1. #391
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    As Hambo pointed out, Colt 2000 All American pistols float around in abundance. I predict that the H9 will serve as a good example to pair with the Colt 2000 if someone desires a "turkey" collection. But seriously. Colt and Knight's Armament collaborated on the 2000 All American project. Colt had engineers and resources. Mr Knight had impeccable credentials. I have no idea why the result was a turkey. Too, I will jump up and say that although Mr. Knight's name was associated with the project, I have no idea how long or to what extent he stayed with the project. I write this to point out that undesirable outcomes can result even with experts doing the work.
    Don't forget the contributions of Eugene Stoner.
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  2. #392
    Member Baldanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Damn.

    I can only hope someone bought the rights to the Hudson and it's going to get made elsewhere. Like when Rohrbaugh and Boberg suddenly disappeared one morning to reappear later...unfortunately they reappeared later as the Remington R380 and the Bond Arms "Bullpup 9". So...maybe that wasn't so good. Maybe Hudson was bought by Para-Ord? That would seem about right.

    I hadn't gone in on a Hudson yet, because there still wasn't a thumb safety. I guess I probably won't be going in on one at all now.

    ETA: Greater clarity achieved - https://www.courtlistener.com/docket...udson-mfg-llc/

    Hudson is being sued, because they didn't pay their bills. Specifically, they didn't pay for the parts they've ostensibly used (or will use) to manufacture some 10,000 pistols. They are being sued to the tune of about 600k right now + attorney fees and interest damages. They've been tied up in court since September, about the time Cy Hudson fell off the grid. I'm betting they cannot currently service handguns due to both a lack of man power and a lack of parts, since they shot their parts supplier in the foot.

    If I were the Hudsons right now, I'd be shopping my intellectual property rights, looking to get out of the hole and come out the other side with a bit of cash. Right now, Hudson is not only looking at 600k+ in legal damages, they're soon to have irreparable reputation damage. Might as well sell off the intellectual rights now and profit, while the getting is there. Or risk losing your ass, entirely in another 18 months. I'm sure someone would offer them a few million + settling their legal issues to buy the rights and patents lock stock and bought. I bet they're trying to get someone to license them and pay them royalties. Not something I would ever do, but someone might be stupid enough to do it.

    Seriously, if I had a moderate sized gun company, like Springfield Armory sized I'd move to buy the rights. A little bit of re-work to get the gun to run XD magazines, stick it in Leatham's hands and turn it loose. The right marketing campaign (Springfield can market) + a company with a good reputation may well turn something like the H9 into a big seller.

    I doubt we've seen the last of the H9 as a handgun, but I bet we've seen the last of them labeled "Hudson".
    What sales niche do they fulfill for a major manufacturer that they don't already have covered?

    I could see Bond Arms possibly being interested.
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  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    Don't forget the contributions of Eugene Stoner.
    Thank you. I failed to mention Eugene Stoner. Since Knight and Stoner had input, my guess is that Colt is at fault for manufacturing a poor product.

    MAS may or may not step forward to clarify the 2000's failure. MAS, will you comment?

  4. #394
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldanders View Post
    What sales niche do they fulfill for a major manufacturer that they don't already have covered?
    All steel double stack striker production legal competition gun. Which is what they should have been marketed as to begin with. A company like STI that has extensive Limited and Open representation could use the Hudson design to buy right into the Production market.

    I could see Bond Arms possibly being interested.
    I can’t. Bond is a small company. Five employees small. The cash outlay for The Boberg design was substantial. They’ve done very well to turn that gun design around and market it well. But they are still in loss leader territory. It’ll be another 36-months of selling the hundred or so a month they’re making, before Bond turns a profit. At least when I spoke to Gordon Bond about it at Christmas time. He’s tight lipped about what it cost him to buy Boberg’s design, but when you factor everything in, plus the 24-months of R&D to re-engineer the Boberg, he knew he was taking a big risk.

    Really both him and his daughter took the risk. Bond’s daughter went to school with my wife and BIL. She skipped college and let her father keep the college fund to grow Bond Arms. He did, and that paid off enough to let Bond buy Boberg. But if this fails, the company will probably go TU and Gordon’s daughter will be out any inheritance she might get from her college fund investment.

    Point being, Bond doesn’t have the cashflow to buy Hudson. Nor the right market share. Bond makes concealable carry guns not competition arms. A company with a vested competition interest should buy Hudson.

    The fact that Cy Hudson was arrogant enough to believe his gun a Glock Killer tells me a lot about his business acumen. He should have marketed it as a USPSA and IDPA class leader. Meanwhile, while Hudson dies, Walther comes out with a steel frame Q5 and kills that production gun market.

  5. #395
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    From a consumer perspective, I can’t speak to how lower bore axis of the Hudson contributed to however flat the gun shot, considering its weight and chambering.

    I don’t think that the actual design of the H9 is that valuable as is the idea of a steel framed striker 9mm as a minimum recoil kind of gun. The steel frame Walther, a steel grip module for the FCU-type designs such as the P320 and OZ-9 should prove out the concept without needing a brand new action design.

    I hate to see stuff fail, but there’s a good video from Forgotten Weapons about what a risky thing it is to jump into the small arms business to manufacture and sell a new gun as a new business.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fjGcsYH0lOs
    Last edited by Bergeron; 03-25-2019 at 06:58 AM.
    Per the PF Code of Conduct, I have a commercial interest in the StreakTM product as sold by Ammo, Inc.

  6. #396
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    For Hudson's IP to be valuable, the design must be substantially sound. Who here knows that for sure?

  7. #397
    Member Baldanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    All steel double stack striker production legal competition gun. Which is what they should have been marketed as to begin with. A company like STI that has extensive Limited and Open representation could use the Hudson design to buy right into the Production market.



    I can’t. Bond is a small company. Five employees small. The cash outlay for The Boberg design was substantial. They’ve done very well to turn that gun design around and market it well. But they are still in loss leader territory. It’ll be another 36-months of selling the hundred or so a month they’re making, before Bond turns a profit. At least when I spoke to Gordon Bond about it at Christmas time. He’s tight lipped about what it cost him to buy Boberg’s design, but when you factor everything in, plus the 24-months of R&D to re-engineer the Boberg, he knew he was taking a big risk.

    Really both him and his daughter took the risk. Bond’s daughter went to school with my wife and BIL. She skipped college and let her father keep the college fund to grow Bond Arms. He did, and that paid off enough to let Bond buy Boberg. But if this fails, the company will probably go TU and Gordon’s daughter will be out any inheritance she might get from her college fund investment.

    Point being, Bond doesn’t have the cashflow to buy Hudson. Nor the right market share. Bond makes concealable carry guns not competition arms. A company with a vested competition interest should buy Hudson.

    The fact that Cy Hudson was arrogant enough to believe his gun a Glock Killer tells me a lot about his business acumen. He should have marketed it as a USPSA and IDPA class leader. Meanwhile, while Hudson dies, Walther comes out with a steel frame Q5 and kills that production gun market.
    Thanks for all the background!

    I guess it boils down to if one of the big boys thinks the H9 would beat an all-steel version of one of their striker-fired guns in performance, and if the potential profit is worth the tooling up and the working-out-the bugs cost. I'm guessing the answer is probably not.

    Did the unique action really do anything to dampen muzzle flip, or was it just the extra weight out front?

    Any thoughts on if Ian's diagnosis ("announced the alloy version too soon and crushed sales of the steel one") has any validity? It doesn't seem to have had an impact on the P-F hive.

    I'm really not the market for the H9, but I'd love to see a new design really make some headway. It seems like the action would be interesting for a hotter cartridge if it truly tames muzzle flip.

    P.S. nothing is a Glock killer. Especially not at $1000+ msrp.
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  8. #398
    Member Baldanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    Thank you. I failed to mention Eugene Stoner. Since Knight and Stoner had input, my guess is that Colt is at fault for manufacturing a poor product.

    MAS may or may not step forward to clarify the 2000's failure. MAS, will you comment?
    I believe in a Forgotten Weapons episode, Ian claimed that the hand-built 2000 prototypes were quite nice, then they set up the production line, and whatever changes they had to make for that process made it awful.
    REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
    REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
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  9. #399
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldanders View Post
    Thanks for all the background!

    I guess it boils down to if one of the big boys thinks the H9 would beat an all-steel version of one of their striker-fired guns in performance, and if the potential profit is worth the tooling up and the working-out-the bugs cost. I'm guessing the answer is probably not.
    That would be my guess too.

    My guess is, the reason we didn't see Hudson get bought before is a mixture of problems. One poor QC made the gun a non-starter and thus no one could tell if the commercial success would be there. Second, when Hudson started rolling downhill, I'm gonna guess they fielded a few phonecalls from interested parties, who probably noped out after seeing some of the digits. With a 10-million plus deficit apparent from the bankruptcy filings, that was too rich for anyone to want to buy.

    My prediction? During bankruptcy there will be a very short auction for the Hudson IP, it'll include just a few players, it'll go for pennies on the start-up dollars. We'll see a new version of Hudson every five years for the next twenty years as someone tries to get it rolling again with too much money invested. One of the five versions won't suck, but will have to deal with the suck of the previous generations such that it will never make it.

    Meanwhile, the big companies have learned something from it and we'll get more steel framed or steel inserted, heavier, guns.

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