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Thread: Pistol Caliber Carbine

  1. #1

    Pistol Caliber Carbine

    For those that follow USPSA, there is a provisional new division, called PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine). In PCC, competitors fire pistol caliber carbines on the same courses of fire as the other USPSA divisions. Rules are available here:

    https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php

    I started shooting PCC about a month ago, and it is incredibly fun to shoot and very addicting. Unlike Carry Optics, another provisional division, which I seem about the only person interested in, each week there are more PCC competitors at matches. Last weekend in Las Vegas, more PCC competitors than Production. Two reasons, I think -- it allows you to deploy a carbine at practical distances, and it is incredible fun to shoot. I have heard it referred to as long gun Open division.

    Being a person that likes basically everything in every caliber, I have messed around with hardware.

    I started with a JP GMR-13, which is basically JP's version of a blow back Colt 6951 9mm carbine. It is a great PCC choice. My two have yet to have a single stoppage, they are PCC accurate, great trigger, and out of the box all they need is an optic to compete. The GMR-13 is popular enough, they are very hard to get, despite costing about $1,700. Many magazine options are available, boosting capacity to around 40 rounds. Here are the downsides of the JP. The magazine release is small and stiff, and combined with a smallish mag well and the blunt shaped Glock magazines, they are harder to reload fast. The other issue is it is a blow back design, meaning the heavier the power factor of your ammo, the more it recoils. I have been running PMC 115 in my JP with good results.

    I also have a Sig MPX. Unlike the JP and other blow back carbines, the MPX uses a gas system. It has some warts. It comes with a lousy trigger, and after market triggers may not hold up, although there is a Geissele MPX trigger in the works. The MPX needs 300 or so full power rounds for a break in. Also, the magazines need to be left loaded several weeks, or they will not work with a slide forward reload, where you manually strip a round (no problem with the slide locked back). There are ten round extensions available from Taran and Springer, adding to the 10, 20 and 30 round capacity factory mags (made by Lancer, I believe). Magazines are expensive compared to the JP using Glock pattern magazines. Here is the big thing, the MPX is incredibly soft shooting compared to a blow back, and stays soft shooting whether you are using PMC 115 or heavy Lawman 147.

    Bill Wilson is making up a Beretta mag AR9 for me to try, and I look forward to ringing that out. I expect typical Wilson quality, and fast reloads using the tapered MecGar 92 mags. An issue is there are OEM 30 round mags, but no extensions available for those.

    I have posted some videos in another PCC thread, which give a feel for the action. In most stages, if you don't screw up, you will never reload, as you have about 40 rounds in the carbine. Reloads only come in for classifiers, which I haven't focused on yet. Just recently, I started dry practicing reloads, and have my MPX live fire reloads in the 1.75 range. Here is one at full speed:



    And here is one in slo mo, to see where I can shave time:



    I will probably cover optics in another post as I need to go take the dog for a hike.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #2
    Tagged.

    I've long thought that the pistol-caliber carbine doesn't get the attention it deserves. It's a fairly natural/obvious step between handguns and long guns, and you can shoot it in a lot of places where rifle cartridges are prohibited.

    Interested to see how this develops.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard

  3. #3
    Member Edwin's Avatar
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    If you get an MPX and are having trouble with some of the heavier weight, lighter gas loads like 147 grn or 158 grn, make sure your gas port is the proper dimension. I've found more than a few MPX with gas ports smaller than 0.050" have issues with these loads. Opening up your gas port to 0.050" or even 0.055" will solve the issue. If you don't want to do the work yourself, ADCO will do it for $15.

  4. #4
    Needs practice Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    I'm actually interested in this sort of thing, and am pondering either the Beretta CX-4 or the CZ Skorpion Evo 3.
    The Beretta would be cheaper, and use the same mags I already have. But I hear the trigger isn't the greatest.
    On the other hand, the CZ tweaks my cool button.

    Any experience, caveats, or general notes on the two?

  5. #5
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    I shot the MPX 8.5" before Christmas. Very soft shooting. Very easy to make hits. It is a bit heavy for what it is, but it's not like you are carrying it all day.

    I like it. Not liking the price, especially the Mag prices. But it is an ergonomically correct MP5.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  6. #6
    AIWB Cultist
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    Looking to buy one for my daughter. Following this thread with interest.

    Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by TYR; 01-03-2017 at 07:15 PM.

  7. #7
    Member Edwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    I'm actually interested in this sort of thing, and am pondering either the Beretta CX-4 or the CZ Skorpion Evo 3.
    The Beretta would be cheaper, and use the same mags I already have. But I hear the trigger isn't the greatest.
    On the other hand, the CZ tweaks my cool button.

    Any experience, caveats, or general notes on the two?
    Sierra Papa can take care of all your CX4 needs.

  8. #8
    I've done a ton of this kind of shooting. Friends and I used to have a big match called Steelapalooza. Basically a course where you run from firing position to firing position, sometimes shooting on the move, sometime not, depending on the stage. Generally they'd be 30+ steel targets of various kinds and difficulty levels. We'd shoot this with a 9mm AR with a dot of some sort, requiring 1 reload or a transition to pistol if necessary, plus unusual positions like SBU prone and weak shoulder firing. I feel that this is great training for building reflexive handling with a carbine, much more valuable than a class IMO once you have baseline skill. I've been hoping you'd do a thread on this, with some pics of your carbine /gear setups.

  9. #9
    Dave, prior to PCC, I can't tell you how many times I took a 5.56 AR to the range, with good intentions to shoot it after the pistol session, but just didn't get to it, because of the issues related to 5.56. Now, I am shooting the carbine as part of every pistol session. I have shot more carbine in the last month than in the last five years combined.

    My wife shot the MPX today for the first time and loved it. She was sharpening my extended ready technique, based on Rogers School doctrine, and demoing me .58 extended ready hits to the eight inch at 25 yards. Tonight she is commenting how she can't wait to shoot the MPX tomorrow, and how she would like a short barrel one as a lower 48 PDW.

    There is so much win in PCC, between fun competing, and the training part using the carbine at practical distances. I think we will see more and more 9mm carbines, as manufacturers see this trend.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter fatdog's Avatar
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    Our last local USPSA club match of the year I shot my old registered SBR semi-auto MP5 clone (from an HK parts kit build a decade ago). It was a blast and my times were keeping up with the open shooters for a change. I predict a lot of people are going to play the game in this division as time marches on because it is fun. My next go round with be with the 9mm conversion kit in my Tavor.

    I agree that if it catches on there will be some demand for more of these types of guns.

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