I agree with you. The CZ75B, while having a very comfortable grip shape, is not small hand friendly. The DA trigger reach is very long, and the thumb safety, if you decide to forgo DA and use it as a single action only, is also a long reach.Originally Posted by dookie1481
For those of you that might be curious she has decided the P30 is the beset fit for her tiny hands. She has been using my P30 almost exclusively at the range. However at the last range visit I gave her my XDm 5.25" model in 45 that I outfitted for IDPA CDP division and she shot it better than she shot the HK. I think she realized grip might make it more comfortable to shoot but a good trigger and good trigger control is what makes it easy to shoot a gun well. This has kind of steered her towards the PPQ because it's the second best grip and a significantly better trigger.
That said I just checked out a P30 LEM model and that trigger was much better so maybe the P30 is still an option.
Actually I wouldn't mind if you kept us updated.
We instructors understand that it's all about how you shoot it and not how it feels. But new shooters sometimes disagree. If you push they might end up not shooting anything. It sounds like you are patient and are allowing her to find her own way. If she is shooting and improving then it's great. She may end up with the P30 and be fine. She may one day gravitate to the hated Glock that so many shoot so well.
IMO, one thing to remember, if she is improving and starting to shoot regularly then quickly finding and sticking to one gun is not a bad idea. That's true even if she ends up changing a year or two later. Bouncing from gun to gun when new can inhibit development of the fundamentals that could last forever (or functionally forever for many shooters.) I've seen new shooters spend a year finding the right trigger for themselves and then started to learn to shoot.
I do think it is easier for someone to learn and protect themselves with a trigger that is the same for each shot. Glock, LEM, etc. I hate, hate, hate the DA/SA. But if she insists then have her shoot it. So what. It's a bit harder to learn but that doesn't mean it's impossible. LOL.
Just food for thought.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
My daughter is less than 5' tall, and the handgun she prefers is the P320sc. The Sub-Compact -Small frame has less material on the grip than the Compact-Small or Full-Size-Small grips, so it really helps for short-fingered people. I set it up for her with X-Grips and extended magazines for the extra capacity, though I may sand down and stipple a Compact-Small frame for her. The beauty of the P320 modular platform is that you can experiment in this way without causing permanent damage.
Yeah she is learning many of the things I had to learn when I was starting out. I tried to tell her some of this but I think some conclusions people need to arrive at by themselves and it's easy for me to be patient because it took a good 4 years before I could shoot what resembled a group at 15 yards.
I agree with you as far as only shooting one gun. I learned that one myself the hard way too when I was starting out 12 years ago. Switching guns every so often. Then I said I need to shoot just my Glock 17 and only the Glock 17. So much so that if I went to the range and people offered to let me shoot their new toy I declined. A few range sessions ago she shot a few guns switching between them and was disappointed in how things were going so I told her from now on she's only allowed to shoot the P30. I only let her shoot the XDm at the end of her last range session.
I also agree that DA/SA guns are maybe not ideal for learning however she always shoots the P30 in SA mode anyway so it is consistent each time.
What really seemed to improve her shooting in the last range session drastically was I told her this method that I learned when I was new to just pull and pause; IE pull the trigger a little bit and then pause. Pull it a little more and then pause. And just keep doing that imagine moving the trigger as little as you can each time until eventually it goes off. It improved her shooting but it also made her very aware of how not great the HK P30 trigger was. Ha. I'm not sure if that is the best technique but it's how I learned trigger control.
I am trying to convince her she needs to dry fire to learn that trigger control but every time I suggest it she (pun intended) shoots down the idea. I was thinking about getting her some of those gripmaster things they use to teach finger strength to help guitar players get finger muscles but reviews on whether they improve shooting are mixed.
There are no significant muscles in the fingers. The gripmaster thingies only help a very little, and can *cause* problems, like overuse injuries. Just lifting and rolling around a 3-5# dumbbell would probably help more. Getting more serious about weights, doing pull-ups, push-ups, all help the muscle groups involved in shooting much more than a gripmaster.
I play guitar. I bought a gripmaster once upon a time to mess around with. I realized quickly that playing guitar doesn't require enough strength to be helped by doing anything except playing and doing drills on the guitar.
Last edited by Duelist; 02-25-2017 at 11:51 PM.
Fair enough. That saved me $15.
I was looking for an option similar to the SIRT without the SIRT prices. I'd take a blue gun with a trigger in it. Kind of surprised no one is making that actually.
For the purposes of shooting a trigger I agree with Duelist. I don't think you need a gripmaster. That is not to say a stronger grip isn't necessary. If it is a weak link then it can cause a person not to be able to use all of their muscles. Most of us don't have an over abundance of muscle, so we need to use all that we have. I believe in the idea, don't injury yourself in training. I wish I had learned that sooner. Damn Osteoarthritis. Gripmaster and things like it can cause wear and tear on the body that isn't needed. Shooting more, doing real exercises, especially pulling exercises can take care of any hand weakness issues in a far better, slower and easier way.
I'm a big fan of teaching a new person to find the front sight and press using a blank wall and shooting at first with no target. I think going with a target to look at leads many a new person to tell us a year later that they are a front sight and press shooter. What many of them clearly are is a target focused shooter. It inhibits their ability to shoot accurately for a long time. Improvement is seeing her trigger finger move at a steady state. The small presses works as a mental model of distraction for someone with real flinching problems.
I would always explain the trigger press by holding out my crooked finger on an imaginary trigger and press at a steady speed. A radar gun would show my finger going a constant speed from start to finish. Then I would press with an increase in speed, looks like a slap. A radar gun would show it was not a constant speed but was actually increasing throughout the finger's travel. Obviously as you know it takes time to get it in their own minds.
Sometimes ideas like small presses at a time or counting to themselves is what they need. Ultimately you should invite her to join you and watch your dryfire. Get her to watch you. Then you can perhaps go back to the fundamentals yourself. Heck we all need to do that from time to time. I'm in the process of doing that myself. I got a little sloppy lately. Okay, I got a lot sloppy lately. ): That way you can lead by example and not try to teach her. Ultimately even a good instructor has problems teaching loved ones to shoot. Once she has the basics it might be a good idea to send her to someone else.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
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