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Thread: Dealing with the big guy.

  1. #81
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    I can't really speak to street fights as that is not my experience. I have had some rather memorable experiences with monsters in the dojo, either my own home studio that I operated for about 9 years or as a traveling rogue student. I have a bunch of thoughts on this, not really formed into a coherent structure plus one interesting fight story if I can get the motvation to capture it in writing.

    So again, 6'0, 165, pretty much a grappling style mongrel with experience in various flavors of SOMBO, Judo, Japanese Jujitsu, some Brazilian Jujitsu and whatever else I tripped across. Once upon a time I used to travel to a lot of matches of various styles or 'open' formats. So, moderately experienced and in my late 20's-early 40's at the time.

    One interesting thing about running a small home studio/club (2X / week, 9 years, 2-16 studients/participants) is that damn near ANYONE (size/skill/background) can and will find you and walk in the door. As the most experienced guy, even my best students would look at the unknown and un-calibrated new guy cock-eyed and go - he's all yours, dude. So I got a lot of interesting experiences, especially as the new guy doesn't usually care as much about people he doesn't (yet) know.

    I trained in a bunch of stuff over the years but honestly my first love is sport grappling with a rules set only restricted to miimize injury. My clear preference is for hardest fight possible with a fully resistive opponent - but knowing we all need to go to work in the morning.

    While we went through striking phases, my striking game is probably my weakest suit - I can beat non-strikers, survive and fake it briefly with strikers but want to get to the ground with any competent striker ASAP before I get my lights knocked out. My style? Atypical. Standing to take-down (throw if possible) to set up a submission. I much prefer the scramble to set position / chess methodology that BJJ favors. Submissions, arms, legs, best yet strangles from anywhere, gi or no-gi, I don't care. I hve few 'favorite' moves, I just try to find the thing that my opponent is weakest at and get to work.

    So...big guys. Monsters in particular. If striking is in play the first rule for me is to stay conscious and minimize injury. Never believe 'light contact' with big guys. Even if they claim to be pulling their punches (they lie) there is just too much momentum. A single decent hit and it's probably game over so I tend to play striking very conservatively and hook up early.

    Once hooked up somehow, next is the standing game. Things are dicey here as well but unless they get a clean throw you are less likely to be taken out. I defend throws well enough, and can take a fall well but still...

    One recurring challenge - I have been snatched and literally picked up overhead at least a half a dozen times by different monsters. The question here is how you come down. If they have good control of you and simply slam you from shoulder+ height you are done. That said, there are things that can be done up there. First, stay connected by grabbing whatever you can. The, straighten, arch and extend horizontally - they can't keep you up. Or get 'wiggly' and become the ultimate nightmare free weight. As you inevitably start to unexpectedly come down, switch to a cannonball posture and create gravitationally-assisted rotational energy, transferring the energy into the monster - accelerating him with a 'sacrifice' type throw as you decelerate your fall.

    The more common risk is that you get mounted or otherwise controlled bya. Dude that is simply too strong/massive to 'technique' your way out of. All I can say is - don't go there or very quickly do whatever you need to do to get out if you find yourself there. Or you are done.

    One key thing is simply to stay alive. Big guys almost inevitably consume a LOT more O2 than smaller and hopefully more aerobially/anerobically efficient guys. Get them burning hot and fast and try to keep them in that state as long as possible. Time can be your friend here. The simplest of control positions should be maintained as long as possible. You can't rush things - let the monster wear himself down.

    Also, monsters tend to be sloppy on technique (WARNING: that doesn't mean they don't KNOW the techniques) and rely on (did I mention that physics here sucks) size / strength / mass and the disparity of this with respect to their opponents. Why? Because they cana nd it just works. They tend to under-estimate smaller opponents and/or over-estimate the speed with which they can end the fight.

    EVERY little thing needs to be played to your advantage...or the conclusion is predictable.

    -more to come-
    Last edited by GuanoLoco; 01-08-2017 at 11:31 AM.

  2. #82
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Getting the big guy to 'gas out' vs. a proper submission can be a viable and even attractive approach, but one that doesn't work well on highly conditioned athletic types. You have to be well conditioned and efficient in terms of your own O2 consumption, energy output and build up of lactic acid in your muscles or they will run you into the dirt instead. It really helps to be very hard to put away through blunt force trauma or submission - without consuming a lot of energy.

    Smothering or 'hot boxing' through some type of control positioning while using a judogi or articles of your clothing or your opponent's clothing to restrict airflow and promote heat and CO2 build-up can accelerate the process. A mere pin or control position can be amazingly effective - IF you can manage it.

    Strangling is good but this can be challenging when the monster looks like a fireplug with no appreciable neck, or so much muscle and/or blubber that the arteries are protected. In these cases I'd recommend using a judogi lapel, collar, the opponents rolled up t-shirt or whatever for leverage.

    Armbars - May be a waste of time if upper body size/strength is too much. Sometimes big guys have oddly restricted joint mobility that can be used to advantage and they will submit well before the joint gets to a normal end of range-of-motion.

    Leglocks - Joint locks may be effective, others are a waste of time. Working on legs may keep the opponent from being able to effectively use size or strength, but some techniques like those that crush nerve complexes for pain submission simply fail when the spots being attacked are sheathed in too much muscle. Other maneuvers may be defeated by the opponent simply powering out of them.
    Last edited by GuanoLoco; 01-08-2017 at 01:52 PM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    The biggest and scariest guy I ever had to take down, (at least twice my weight and a foot taller), was someone I thankfully didn't have to be steamrolled by. I threw him the cuffs, (or flexicuffs, it's been a while), and told him to put them on and snugly as I really didn't want to have to shoot him which I would happily do if he decided to press the issue and charge me.
    This: ^^^^^

  4. #84
    We had a McDonald's robbed by a cartoon character freak level guy. Wore some sort of clothing over his face, but the description given of the guy were all of a 7 foot huge black guy that was not fat. I was very close on a bicycle when that came out and we had a great perimeter. Sure enough I encounter the guy outside a cemetery wearing just pants as he ditched all the rest of his clothing. He was 6' 8 plus, about 350, with six pack abs and the biggest chest I have ever seen. Shaved head, and the guy was very dark complected. He was the most intimidating human I have ever seen. I simply drew to a Low Ready, told him I didn't care if he had a gun or not, if he did anything other than drop to prone and wait for me to get back up to cuff him, I was going to put a .45 right between his eyes. I was dead serious, he knew I was dead serious, and he just did what he was told. He was actually pretty decent as he spent his entire life basically in and out of prison and did well with the respect both ways program. He said he knows he scares cops, and because I was not screaming at him, he knew I was serious that I was just going to shoot him in the head. He was going to prison for a long haul, and his whole family showed up for court. They were all enormous and brothers were all high level football players (college and pro). Apparently, he was the most physically gifted of all of them, but was not very smart and had been committing robberies since he was a kid. I guess taking whatever you want when you are dumb as a rock and monster huge becomes a way of life. I can only imagine that he is very successful in prison world. Key is, with some folks, I have no problem admitting that I am scared to death, and I don't care how good I am at any level of martial arts or fighting skill.....some folks will just need to be shot in the brain to remotely hope for success in surviving an encounter with them.
    Last edited by Dagga Boy; 01-08-2017 at 07:17 PM.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  5. #85
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    We had a McDonald's robbed by a cartoon character freak level guy. Wore some sort of clothing over his face, but the description given of the guy were all of a 7 foot huge black guy that was not fat. I was very close on a bicycle when that came out and we had a great perimeter. Sure enough I encounter the guy outside a cemetery wearing just pants as he ditched all the rest of his clothing. He was 6' 8 plus, about 350, with six pack abs and the biggest chest I have ever seen. Shaved head, and the guy was very dark complected. He was the most intimidating human I have ever seen. I simply drew to a Low Ready, told him I didn't care if he had a gun or not, if he did anything other than drop to prone and wait for me to get back up to cuff him, I was going to put a .45 right between his eyes. I was dead serious, he knew I was dead serious, and he just did what he was told. He was actually pretty decent as he spent his entire life basically in and out of prison and did well with the respect both ways program. He said he knows he scares cops, and because I was not screaming at him, he knew I was serious that I was just going to shoot him in the head. He was going to prison for a long haul, and his whole family showed up for court. They were all enormous and brothers were all high level football players (college and pro). Apparently, he was the most physically gifted of all of them, but was not very smart and had been committing robberies since he was a kid. I guess taking whatever you want when you are dumb as a rock and monster huge becomes a way of life. I can only imagine that he is very successful in prison world. Key is, with some folks, I have no problem admitting that I am scared to death, and I don't care how good I am at any level of martial arts or fighting skill.....some folks will just need to be shot in the brain to remotely hope for success in surviving an encounter with them.
    Y'know, this is pretty much at the core of why I am such a rabid 2A'er. Can you imagine being, say, a 5'4" 115-120 lb 30-something female and encountering that some night in a parking lot or in your apartment? That's, like, Voyage of Sinbad stuff.


  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidheshooter View Post
    Just out of curiosity does he seem, well, aroused to you?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Duces Tecum View Post
    Just out of curiosity does he seem, well, aroused to you?
    Getting ready for his role in Flesh Gordon...
    Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
    “It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
    Glenn Reynolds

  8. #88
    Member BaiHu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Not trying to be a complete jerk, but...have you seen either one of those guys with an experienced 250-350 pounder in a confined environment on the street with no rules? Having been latched on to some serious monsters in the past....things get a bit different when you have a carotid set and you get driven backwards though a wall and the guy is trying to stuff you between the studs. That was me at 230 pounds and in good fighting shape. I had to actually pierce his wrists through skin cuffing the guy because his wrists were bigger than the cuffs. He did compliment me getting him into cuffs, as he said it took 14 officers from a neighboring agency AFTER he had been shot (not by the cops). These folks walk among us, and stepping through a knee my work on Bubba, but will likely not go so well on a guy who as played defensive tackle and has seen that move before.

    Now, I have seen some small guys who are not folks I ever want to screw with on purpose, but it is the level of brutality and a mayhem switch that is what makes them good as opposed to martial arts skill. They are two different things for two very different environments.
    ^^This
    Short version: there's a reason why we have weight classes in competitive fighting and why the 2nd amendment exists.

    For as to the strength of body, the weakest has strength enough to kill the strongest, either by secret machination or by confederacy with others that are in the same danger with himself.
    Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes
    Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Duces Tecum View Post
    Just out of curiosity does he seem, well, aroused to you?
    Real life Cyclopes

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Mitchum View Post
    Real life Cyclopes
    They truely walk among us, and they are not always on our team or wrestling entertainers. The guy I arrested on the McDonalds robbery could have been making a mint in the WWE instead of ripping off McDonalds.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

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