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Thread: 'Protective overwatch (PO-W)' counter-ambush tactic could save lives

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I always find it humorous when something bad happens or there is a bunch of high profile activity many agencies start running two officer cars........for two weeks, then right back to one. Any place serious about the safety of their officers in today's world will be running two officer units.....period. Then, they can start taking force training serious instead of sensitivity training. Until that happens....quit talking about good fairy ideas.

    Speaking as the greenest of the green know-nothings, ever since the Adam-12 days, whenever I've seen a lone office in a car, I think: "Why?" I guess "numbers" dictate - IOW, the simple majority of calls are easily handled by one officer - is that it? But, what about the rest of the calls? We all know even a great response time is still too long for a lone officer in a "situation." When you mix in all the sidewalk movie directors/bg cheerleaders with their phones/cameras, grinding away, pushing a response into something it would have never been without their intervention, that lone officer is doomed. Only if he is able to dominate and secure the scene asap, will he succeed. I will never understand why the American people now think LEO are the bad guys and that they never need any help.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by 11B10 View Post
    Speaking as the greenest of the green know-nothings, ever since the Adam-12 days, whenever I've seen a lone office in a car, I think: "Why?" I guess "numbers" dictate - IOW, the simple majority of calls are easily handled by one officer - is that it? But, what about the rest of the calls? We all know even a great response time is still too long for a lone officer in a "situation." When you mix in all the sidewalk movie directors/bg cheerleaders with their phones/cameras, grinding away, pushing a response into something it would have never been without their intervention, that lone officer is doomed. Only if he is able to dominate and secure the scene asap, will he succeed. I will never understand why the American people now think LEO are the bad guys and that they never need any help.
    It is a heavily antiquated idea that is simply stupid in today's world. Three decades ago and prior, you could get away with it. We hired a different kind of cop.....like height and weight and played contact sports was expected. We hired from "working classes", not college classes. Life in the car was simple.....it did not require directions and a manual to turn to the red and blue lights on, no computers.....wrote calls on a notepad. No camera's, mic's and a treasure trove of AV equipment in the trunk. Full size car with room up front for "stuff" to go to war with if needed. Very un restrictive policies on force if you were threatened.......resistance was dealt with immediately and with overwhelming authority. That is not today. As we keep getting told that we cannot do cop work like we did three decades ago and prior.....then guess what jack ass's, you cannot staff like you did three decades ago. I was a huge advocate of once computers went in the car, a computer operator needed to go with it. I worked a solo car my whole career. It sucked. I got a ton more done and much safer when I worked assignments with a partner. Heck, even having a young ride along that was interested in cop work or a trainee was better than nothing.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EM_ View Post
    Great in theory but we can't even get people across the country to be certain they are using proper contact/cover. Madison, WI just had their chief send a memo enforcing the general order that they can not refuse or cancel their backup without a supervisors approval. This is not a town known for their hard line officer safety protocol, either. It's a pretty liberal, progressive town. But still, even their chief saw the dangers coming down the road and is now going from "this is good safety protocol" to "you WILL do this or get reprimanded" if you don't use cover officers.

    I'm also not saying he's completely altruistic. There are penalties out there he acknowledged stating they are also concerned about the safety of offenders...perhaps they'll respond better to the force option of two officers and not have to result in any use of force.

    Just seeing orders like this give should tell everyone how unconcerned the average street officer is with officer safety at it's most basic level...always outnumber the bad guys on a scene. Look at my pet peeve: the retail theft / shoplifter "in custody" call from a retail establishment. It's one of the few calls we go to in which there is almost a guarantee of a physical arrest when we arrive and it's still pretty common for places to only dispatch one officer, or for that officer to cancel the other units, because it's "just a shoplifter." I can think of many, many real life encounters with shoplifters or forgery suspects at a big box store that resulted in a deadly force encounter.
    We just had a shoplifting incident here in The Springs in which store security locked the exit doors to keep the shop lifters from leaving and the shop lifters shot the glass out of the doors to get away

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I always find it humorous when something bad happens or there is a bunch of high profile activity many agencies start running two officer cars........for two weeks, then right back to one. Any place serious about the safety of their officers in today's world will be running two officer units.....period. Then, they can start taking force training serious instead of sensitivity training. Until that happens....quit talking about good fairy ideas.
    Funnier yet is one department that still rolls two man cars...but only after dark. Because, you know, bad people only go out at night.
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Good idea.... But where do you get the manpower for that? We'd be in the hole every day more than we are if we did that...

    On top of all that, training and complacency is a serious issue. Which directly impacts this. Most of the officers I work with I wouldn't trust to do this.
    When I worked in uniform, there was maybe 10% that I would trust to be switched on.

    I remember having a distinct conversation about one Deputy in particular who was an honest 80-100 pounds over weight.

    I was very blunt when I said that he was worthless to me. He could not get out of a car fast if his life depended on it, and when he did, he was already breathing hard. He constantly would fall asleep in his car or the patrol room, due to sleep apnea related to his obesity.

    I told a number of people that if I am rolling in a brawl someplace, and it is bad enough that I call for help, I need knuckle dragging, hard men showing up, not fat fucks who can't run a block, and never practice with their tools.

    It offended more than a few dudes, but I frankly did not give a shit. The truth hurts.

    The funny part is that one of the best partners I had in patrol was a female, who liked other chicks. She was definitely the top dog too. She was a college B-Ball player (yeah I know) and was very athletic. She also was a boxer. The local college had annual "Boxing Smokers". She whipped all the girls and began to box against guys. She could throw punch like a man.

    I always found it funny when dealing with aggressive people when she was with me. They would puff up on me, and I would advise them that they were about to be very embarrassed. They would focus on me, and never see the takedown coming when she grabbed them and threw them on the ground.

    I recall one group of young college rodeo kids. There was one who was sticking his chest out, looking for a fight. I warned him that his friends were going to be laughing at him soon and he was not going to live it down for a long time. He squared off on me. She came in and got him in a wristlock, and drove him to the ground. His buddies who were watching erupted into laughter. She cuffed him up in a matter of seconds and he was seriously humiliated.

    That said, she is the ONLY female cop I have ever known to be worth a crap in a fight. I have had two who sprayed both me and the suspect with OC when I was rolling.

  6. #16
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    I really thought my Dept was going to two man cars when gas was getting expensive just to save money.they didn't . I know when I was an FTO I saw a lot more as a passenger because I was not distracted by driving. I also remember going to more than a few hot calls at shift change doubled up and responding lights and sirens was safer driving with an experienced officer I trusted and me clearing the cross streets. Funny how they never told me I had to go home when I was off shift for those calls. Easy and fun OT. Maybe that's one way to separate officers- those who run to the fight - those who run away. And yes I was one of the fat fucks. Not every one fat was always fat. The last time I went through a Gracie juijitsu seminar I found out my weight could help. Think sumo. But if I could have lost the weight I would have. Still trying

  7. #17
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    So basically bounding overwatch with stops. Great idea in theory, but it sounds like a shitload of new cops are gonna need to be hired.
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Since it's apparently impossible to pass over idiots and cowards when hiring, my answer would be two man cars that handled backup and hot calls. That way at least you would know you're getting somebody who will get in the fight. Of course that will never happen because it costs money, and most admin doesn't want to hear shit from the public about heavily armed death squad violate your civil rights cars.
    When I first got on, if you were solo it was either because you wanted to be or because you fucked up and were being punished.

    Now if you are two person its because you are boot as fuck and can't be trusted be by yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost River View Post
    When I worked in uniform, there was maybe 10% that I would trust to be switched on.

    I remember having a distinct conversation about one Deputy in particular who was an honest 80-100 pounds over weight.

    I was very blunt when I said that he was worthless to me. He could not get out of a car fast if his life depended on it, and when he did, he was already breathing hard. He constantly would fall asleep in his car or the patrol room, due to sleep apnea related to his obesity.

    I told a number of people that if I am rolling in a brawl someplace, and it is bad enough that I call for help, I need knuckle dragging, hard men showing up, not fat fucks who can't run a block, and never practice with their tools.

    It offended more than a few dudes, but I frankly did not give a shit. The truth hurts.

    The funny part is that one of the best partners I had in patrol was a female, who liked other chicks. She was definitely the top dog too. She was a college B-Ball player (yeah I know) and was very athletic. She also was a boxer. The local college had annual "Boxing Smokers". She whipped all the girls and began to box against guys. She could throw punch like a man.

    I always found it funny when dealing with aggressive people when she was with me. They would puff up on me, and I would advise them that they were about to be very embarrassed. They would focus on me, and never see the takedown coming when she grabbed them and threw them on the ground.

    I recall one group of young college rodeo kids. There was one who was sticking his chest out, looking for a fight. I warned him that his friends were going to be laughing at him soon and he was not going to live it down for a long time. He squared off on me. She came in and got him in a wristlock, and drove him to the ground. His buddies who were watching erupted into laughter. She cuffed him up in a matter of seconds and he was seriously humiliated.

    That said, she is the ONLY female cop I have ever known to be worth a crap in a fight. I have had two who sprayed both me and the suspect with OC when I was rolling.
    It has to be pointed out whenever possible, if everyone starts pointing it out then the POS's will get the hint and it wont be taboo to say stuff like that.

    Of the female officer's I've ever worked with there have only been three (two white, one black) who knew how to get down. They were ultra quick to drop a dude with a jack, stick, taser or just bum rush them. Only females I've ever heard go in foot pursuit over radio, and that's really saying something as we chased people all the time for everything.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    It is a heavily antiquated idea that is simply stupid in today's world. Three decades ago and prior, you could get away with it. We hired a different kind of cop.....like height and weight and played contact sports was expected. We hired from "working classes", not college classes. Life in the car was simple.....it did not require directions and a manual to turn to the red and blue lights on, no computers.....wrote calls on a notepad. No camera's, mic's and a treasure trove of AV equipment in the trunk. Full size car with room up front for "stuff" to go to war with if needed. Very un restrictive policies on force if you were threatened.......resistance was dealt with immediately and with overwhelming authority. That is not today. As we keep getting told that we cannot do cop work like we did three decades ago and prior.....then guess what jack ass's, you cannot staff like you did three decades ago. I was a huge advocate of once computers went in the car, a computer operator needed to go with it. I worked a solo car my whole career. It sucked. I got a ton more done and much safer when I worked assignments with a partner. Heck, even having a young ride along that was interested in cop work or a trainee was better than nothing.


    This kind of response ^^^^ is exactly why I feel emboldened to come out lurker class. Thanks, DB - much appreciated.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I always find it humorous when something bad happens or there is a bunch of high profile activity many agencies start running two officer cars........for two weeks, then right back to one. Any place serious about the safety of their officers in today's world will be running two officer units.....period. Then, they can start taking force training serious instead of sensitivity training. Until that happens....quit talking about good fairy ideas.
    If officers were smart and played the game, that is not responding to any calls without cover, the good idea fairy that came up with nonsense about how one man units are safer would get her ass kicked out the door. But I can't convince guys to not go to dangerous calls without cover because it might save their lives, forget about accomplishing anything else.

    I think that two one man elements responding to a call, making a plan and approaching from different directions have an advantage over two officers in one car, but I might as well try to teach string theory.

    The whole protective overwatch thing sounds like a rehash of the well established contact-cover model. There are plenty of times an officer(s) could break out of the circle jerk and do something more useful than backseat drive an investigation for another officer.
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