What is wrong with an older Winchester or Remington with iron sights?Originally Posted by jc000
Something along these lines
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I have a really nice Remington 700 ADL with iron sights in 243 that I picked up at a pawn shop for $250 a few years ago. With my reloads and a Vortex PST I can consistently hit a 12x12" steel target at 450 yards and at 100 it will print 5 shots into a little over an inch. I would think that would be more than sufficient for most hunters.
-Seconds Count. Misses Don't-
I meant to say everything but the action. I figured everybody here knew what I meant, but it irritates me when I re-read something and find things that I should have caught, or proof-read.
There is nothing wrong with older Winchesters and Remingtons if you are not looking for sub MOA accuracy. Yes, a number of them will shoot sub MOA, but it is like playing roulette sometimes trying to find one. It has been my experience that a great many of them will not shoot MOA, versus the various Tikkas (especially 308s and 30-06s) that it is unusual to find one that WON'T shoot tiny groups.
LOTS and LOTS of guys, especially on the net will post one single 3 shot group that they cherry picked and say that is what there gun will do "all day long" or some other such nonsense. But when you ask them to shoot 3 or 5 groups on the same piece of paper, and post an average, suddenly all you hear are excuses or crickets.
BTW, I am in no way, shape or form saying that Seconds Count is included in the guys who cherry pick groups. We have a far higher caliber of members here, than pretty much any other gun forum.
Back on topic..
Sakos and Tikkas tend to be able to produce small groups with ease and consistency. I really like old Remingtons and Winchesters, but when accuracy is key, I choose something else.
Tikka factory barrel:
Sako factory barrel:
As long as we are talking about Remington, I along with a bunch of others have noted a MASSIVE decline in quality control since Freedom Group/Cerebus took the helm. It was already declining prior to that but not at the speed of which the previously mentioned organizations have destroyed the reputation of what once was a premier American firearms manufacturing company. Marlin pretty much was destroyed in the same process. That is why "JM" Marlins are sought after, and rising in value, as compared to the modern "Remlins".
When I went to M24 SWS and 870 school the primary Armorer/instructor, who had been working for the organization for decades acknowledged that he had noted the significant quality decline. He stated he was retiring soon, and would speak a little more freely on breaks, when not standing in front of the whole class.
Frankly, unless I am just buying it for the action, I would not buy a new Remington. Nor would I buy one made in the last 10 years, unless I had a chance to shoot it first. The 60s through mid 90s guns seem to be mostly G2G, and odds are that you will get a pretty decent rifle, but it is always a gamble buying a used rifle unless you know and trust the previous owner well.
Frankly it is just simpler to grab a T3, configure it how you like, and go forth and kill stuff.
http://www.tikka.fi/en-us/rifles/tik...t3-battue-lite
Unfortunately, Beretta doesn't bring them in. But the GM at Whittaker Guns has talked various companies into exclusive runs of other stuff. If you go find him on 24HourCampfire where he's an active poster, maybe you could plant a seed that grows.
I've been looking at that model for years. It drives me crazy that they have it on their site yet won't bring it into the states.
I guess the question still is, why is it so hard to find iron-sighted rifles? Yes, I know they're out there, but they are pretty damn rare it seems.
Iron sighted rifles are rare, because scopes usually make a better choice for the job.
Regardless, what matters is what you want. Tikka has the Boar Hunter, available used now, with sights already mounted. One is sitting in a shop a few hundred yards from me, asking $700 for it. Others are out there, or you can have sights installed pretty easily, and they will be better and more robust than the factory offerings.
My response was based on the fact that most people can't shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yards with an iron sighted rifle so the accuracy portion didn't weigh in as much.
Using my Tikka Sporter in 223, I shot the ar15.com MOA challenge which is five 5-shot groups using a bipod and a rear bag. I shot my groups at 100 yards using various handloads and the results were .638/.794/1.06/.640/.855" = .762 MOA. I am betting that if I stayed with the same load I could have shrunk that average by a tenth or so but it isn't like the rifle is capable of hanging with a benchrest rifle.
I agree that Tikka has better QC than Remington but it isn't like every Remington coming out of the factory is junk either. My recent experience with Remington has been very good. That Xmark trigger is mediocre and for heavy use I would definitely upgrade it. That is the beauty of a Remington though, tons of aftermarket support to make the rifle exactly how you want it.
If you want to shoot at 1000 yards then every tenth of an inch and foot per second counts. In reality, most people are not going to wring that kind of accuracy out of their rifle, especially for hunting purposes.
-Seconds Count. Misses Don't-
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