Uneven seating depths and OAL's with .38 sp +P Win Ranger T 130gr Bonded JHP

[Doug MacRay]

Long time reader, first time poster. I've long carried Federal 148gr WC's in my J-frame BUG, as per the advice posted within this forum. However, after reading many of the posts here and researching gel tests conducted elsewhere, I decided to make the switch to a JHP load. I've never had a problem with the recoil of +P loads and can run roughly the same time and accuracy on close range drills with hotter .38 loads as with standard loads, so I figured I might as well make the switch. Seeing as how the Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P "short barrel" loads are as rare and mythical as Flite Control #1 buckshot loads (for civilians anyhow), I went with the next best option, the 130gr +P Winchester Ranger T. The only reputable test I know of conducted with these loads displayed adequate terminal performance out of a short barrel:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...ial-p-130.html

However, I received a box of 50 (from a reputable dealer) to try out and upon close inspection noticed that every single load is unevenly seated in the casing. Some are seated so low that the crimp is not visible while others display ~1mm of visible crimp. This leads to different OALs between rounds. Not a single round was evenly seated either. Some of the worst rounds have none of the crimping visible on one side of the cartridge while ~1mm is visible on the other side, leading me to believe either the bullet is canted in its seating or the crimping is uneven. Pics below:

http://imgur.com/a/f339a

Are these safe to fire? If so, will this affect terminal performance in any meaningful fashion? Did this box fall off a truck, or is this not a big deal? I've never encountered this problem before, with any kind of ammunition. Model number is RA38B, box markings are: MPRA121Y, E129843, K6684.

Thanks for all of the hard work you ladies and gentlemen put into this site. It is much appreciated.

[olstyn]

Seems like a QC failure. Whether they're safe to fire or not depends on a lot of factors - powder charge & type, normal seating depth vs the shortest one you've got, etc. Hard for anybody who doesn't have Winchester's internal load data to really know that stuff. I would *guess* that Winchester is not loading them so hot that a 1mm/.04 inch variation in OAL would cause unsafe pressure, but I cannot in any way guarantee that. I'd send those pictures to somebody at Winchester and see what their opinion is. I wouldn't be surprised if they asked you to send them that ammo and gave you a replacement box in exchange.

[Chuck Haggard]

I had several boxes like that, they ended up sent back to Winchester and I got a refund.

I've noted for awhile now that Winchester's QC is sadly lacking over the past few years. I know that Dallas PD was a Winchester department for decades, due to the numerous unaddressed ammo QC issues they dumped Winchester and went with Hornady. LAPD is looking into new ammo as well, and for the same reasons.

[Kyle Reese]

Damn. I just got some of this stuff in for my J-Frame. Need to check it.

[txdpd]

I've noted for awhile now that Winchester's QC is sadly lacking over the past few years. I know that Dallas PD was a Winchester department for decades, due to the numerous unaddressed ammo QC issues they dumped Winchester and went with Hornady. LAPD is looking into new ammo as well, and for the same reasons.

Yes we did drop Winchester for Hornandy. I don't know how much truth there is to it, but there were rumors floating around that soon to be ex-employees were deliberately sabotaging ammunition at the Illinois plant after Olin announced its closure. But around 2010 the quality took a major nose dive, and even the RA9T rounds started showing up with problems.

[TiroFijo]

I don't have doubts about the safety regarding pressure, but I would be concerned about a crimp that is too light that bullets creep forward while others are fired.

[Doug MacRay]

Thanks for the information gents. I'll talk to Winchester and stick to my WC's for now.

[deputyG23]

Damn. I just got some of this stuff in for my J-Frame. Need to check it.

Me too. Ordered two boxes from GT Distributors back in the summer to feed my 442.
They are selling them even cheaper now at $14.99/50.

[Doug MacRay]

Me too. Ordered two boxes from GT Distributors back in the summer to feed my 442.
They are selling them even cheaper now at $14.99/50.

Can you please update this thread when you check the ammo you received from GT? At that price, I'd like to buy a few boxes, but not if they are suffering from the same issues as the others. A price that low doesn't really give me much confidence however.

[deputyG23]

Can you please update this thread when you check the ammo you received from GT? At that price, I'd like to buy a few boxes, but not if they are suffering from the same issues as the others. A price that low doesn't really give me much confidence however.

Quickly checked a box from lot 86KB32. There appear to be slight variations in seating depth. The cannelure is visible on all fifty rounds by varying degrees.
I plan to chrono some of this Christmas week to see if they fire with a reasonable degree of uniformity. If they do, they will be GTG for carry. If not, I will contact Winchester.