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Thread: Shooting Standards that Matter

  1. #71
    Member
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    East Greenwich, RI
    So much great info in this thread. I'm only going to add a couple of things.

    You won't know what is required on the final exam until you take it. Because of this, I believe in pushing for constant improvement and not settling for a performance standard that will that meet "average" events. Most people's performance under stress will be degraded, so having accuracy and speed in the bank provides a performance margin.

    Speed is important and can be the difference between participating in a shooting vs a gunfight. I'm aware of several folks, including myself, who are alive because they were faster to deliver hits than the other guy.

    Learn to run your equipment without thinking about the mechanics,. Your focus should be on the tactics needed to resolve the event, not how to run your gun.

    Awareness and mental preparedness are your first line of defense.

  2. #72
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Waaaay out west.
    IMO shooting standards that matter are personal choice, based on the shooters experience, goals, and motivations.

    The ones that matter to me are:

    1) F.A.S.T.
    2) Defoor Pistol Test 1
    3) Gabe White Standards
    4) El Presidente

    If I could earn a coin, pass the Defoor Test, get a turbo pin, or shoot the GM level HF on the above mentioned drills/tests, I would think that I had achieved a level of skill that I could be proud of.

    Oh....I almost forgot, winning an IPSC match is pretty high up on my list of standards as well. But man.....that is a totally subjective standard.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
    --

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Sharp View Post
    I think there is value in standards such as those used by guys like Tom Givens, Wayne and Darryl Bolke, Mas Ayoob, or Bill Rogers. Every LE org out there has a qualification or standards type shoot that must be passed. Rather than re-invent the wheel I would just adopt their standards. The FBI qual, ATF, Air Marshall, or DEA qual are all pretty good places to start.
    So we're just done with "Phrasing," that's not a thing anymore?

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    So we're just done with "Phrasing," that's not a thing anymore?
    We're "Pardner's" in a Texas way, not "Partners" in the California way. Just to clarify.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    We're "Pardner's" in a Texas way, not "Partners" in the California way. Just to clarify.

    Who is the Mama and who is the Daddy?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #76
    Member Paul Sharp's Avatar
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    Mar 2014
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    Illinois
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    So we're just done with "Phrasing," that's not a thing anymore?
    Doh!!
    "There is magic in misery. You need to constantly fail. Always bite off more than you can chew, put yourself in situations where you don't succeed then really analyze why you didn't succeed." - Dean Karnazes www.sbgillinois.com

  7. #77
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    "It cost approximately a 62% time increase to bring hits up by 20% (10/10 instead of 8/10.) That's why, outside of physical circumstances that demand not just 100% hits to the adversary, but 100% hits to the desirable target zone with zero tolerance for error, it may not be that good a deal in terms of shooting mechanics."

    Now let's try it again with a totally different outlook:

    It gained approximately a 62% increase in assessment time and brought hits up by 20% (10/10 instead of 8/10.) That's why, outside of physical circumstances that demand pure speed of shots to the adversary, getting 100% hits to the most desirable target zone with zero tolerance for error, is a good deal in terms of appropriate and defensible use of force.
    So, why not shoot like in the one where I took over three times as long and almost drilled out the X-ring? That would be even more assessment time, and even better anatomical hits - especially with the likely performance degradation of stress and chaotic physical circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I will say that in my early years of working OIS's and assessing incidents to tune training I did have several issues with "too slow". We had numerous incidents in which because of how our folks were trained with insanely long times they never learned to actually work with a combination of both speed and an accuracy standard. In cases pushed for speed, they reverted to the "speed solution" for the time, which was classic point shooting, with terrible results. In one case we had a very high level PPC shooter who could not get a shot on a suspect because he was working off a clock based on his sport.
    It's really interesting that you say this. It rings true to me, even in the world of training and competition. When people have not been exposed to pressure, they might really fall apart when they do feel it and they have not learned to work within it yet. There are a lot of ways to get at that in training, even though it's never going to be the same as when there is a real fear of death and serious injury. But that's the way it is, so you do what you can and drive on. Anyway, it is a very old story in competitive shooting for a new participant to have an accuracy background that is strong in isolation, but then when time pressure is introduced too, they don't exert the discipline on themselves to carry out the fundamentals of shooting and do something else instead - usually stick the gun out there and whack on the trigger a bunch without either aiming or triggering well, on top of decisionmaking errors too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    We found balance was the key, as well as constant reinforcement of application of fundamentals in all aspects of shooting, both speed based, use of force based, and accuracy based. You should be shooting drills that work all of them.
    Totally agree.

    ----

    I don't know why I keep going around with you on this, it is like a pathology for me. Just like the last time when I think we were all talking about anatomical hits and the manner of shooting that best gets us where we want to be, no one, not anyone is saying that time is not a factor, nor is anyone advocating for actual spray and pray or misses that endanger bystanders. Everyone in this community isn't really very far apart in the big scheme of things.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  8. #78
    "When it comes to the self-defense focused use of a handgun, what shooting standards really matter the most?" To me, it matters what I can do cold from concealed carry consistent under a jacket or vest, strong side OWB, with my G43 or G19. I am headed to range now to do the 5 X 5. Plan to post results later.

  9. #79
    We spend a whole lot of time on PF talking about standards, tests, measurements, and metrics.

    We spend comparatively very little time on how to practice effectively. Both in the sense of how to best spend time and rounds in individual sessions and in the sense of how to organize practice strategy at a much larger scale.

  10. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    So, why not shoot like in the one where I took over three times as long and almost drilled out the X-ring? That would be even more assessment time, and even better anatomical hits - especially with the likely performance degradation of stress and chaotic physical circumstances.



    It's really interesting that you say this. It rings true to me, even in the world of training and competition. When people have not been exposed to pressure, they might really fall apart when they do feel it and they have not learned to work within it yet. There are a lot of ways to get at that in training, even though it's never going to be the same as when there is a real fear of death and serious injury. But that's the way it is, so you do what you can and drive on. Anyway, it is a very old story in competitive shooting for a new participant to have an accuracy background that is strong in isolation, but then when time pressure is introduced too, they don't exert the discipline on themselves to carry out the fundamentals of shooting and do something else instead - usually stick the gun out there and whack on the trigger a bunch without either aiming or triggering well, on top of decisionmaking errors too.



    Totally agree.

    ----

    I don't know why I keep going around with you on this, it is like a pathology for me. Just like the last time when I think we were all talking about anatomical hits and the manner of shooting that best gets us where we want to be, no one, not anyone is saying that time is not a factor, nor is anyone advocating for actual spray and pray or misses that endanger bystanders. Everyone in this community isn't really very far apart in the big scheme of things.

    Part of the reason I invest in these cyclic conversations now with guys like you and George is that once it is not personal and strictly working from our own view of the world I think it lays significant balance and covers a lot of ground for a lot of people to read. We are often saying the same thing different. It is what is good when folks get "to know each other" and can just post info and it is not taken wrong. I think it puts a lot out in the open to hit the cerebral side of the equation for a large audience.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

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