KSTG

[Chris Rhines]

Ehhhh... Although I'm not too horribly torn up that I can't shoot my G34 in this game, I don't know that the barrel length restriction makes sense. While barrel length may have a small effect on overall concealability, overall length and height are much more important. The G34 is actually an excellent demonstration of that - a stock G34 and a stock 5" 1911a1 are almost the same in length and height.

I would submit that the max 5" barrel length rule can be jettisoned as an unnecessary overlap with the box rule (I.A.2.), and the concealment test rule (I.D.1.).

Now if the issue is that the G34/5 are specifically marketed as game guns, that's fine. I'd still lose the barrel length restriction, and ban any pistol marketed as a competition gun by name (off the top of my head, that would include the G34/5, the S&W M&P Pro, the Springfield XD(M) series, the Para P16.40 Limited, and pretty much the entire STI/SVI product line...) I'm not saying that such a move would be a great idea, but it would make more sense than an arbitrary barrel length cutoff.

...

If I were to buy a G19 solely for the purposes of shooting KSTG, isn't that like, reverse gaming?

-C

[JodyH]

Make the box 8.25" x 5.75", that way you could piss off the 1911 shooters as well as the 34 shooters.

[orionz06]

Make the box 8.25" x 5.75", that way you could piss off the 1911 shooters as well as the 34 shooters.

I knew I liked you for a reason.

[ToddG]

My AAR after running the first match:

• Accuracy penalty is brutal compared to other sports. Having said that, switching to half a second per point would have changed the results very little in terms of who beat whom. Only one person would have pushed into the top 25% of scores, and only one would have avoided being in the bottom 25%. One thing I did notice is that quite few folks took make-up shots to guarantee they got good hits. This is exactly what we wanted to see.
• Procedural penalties are brutal compared to other sports. Folks who didn't pay attention and earned procedurals were bit hard. Most of these were either related to cover or failure to move during mandated SOM courses of fire. Most of the penalties fell to folks with little or no prior competition experience. My belief, for the time being, is that as people become familiar with the rules and familiar with following instructions during a match the incidence of procedurals will drop. The penalty was purposely set high because we wanted breaking the rules to matter, not be something folks gamed or were willing to risk.
• Non-threat penalties are actually still pretty light unless you score an A-zone, which we only had happen with one shooter who deliberately shot the target in the face (twice) not realizing it was a non-threat. This reflects our philosophy that hitting one due to a tough shot shouldn't penalize the shooter as much as a target ID failure, especially when the non-threat target ID is a giant reflective red X. Having said that, I'm wondering if the non-A-zone NT penalty should go up from 5s to 10s.
• Failure to neutralize penalty really kicked a lot of people's butts on the stage with the swingers. Again, I think this is in part because people were not adequately familiar with the rules. Even though we pointed out at the beginning of the match the need to score at least one "A" to avoid the additional 5s penalty, we had quite a few folks who were satisfied by two Charlies on the swinger... two seconds of penalties for the accuracy was a small price but the addition five for the FTN hurt.
• SLG and I spoke for about an hour last night after the match regarding the cover rule. We're still bouncing some ideas around but one of the major changes we're discussing is adding a "FAULT!" warning if someone isn't using cover as proscribed, then giving them a chance to fix it before accruing a penalty. The downside to that is some competitors purposely take advantage and break their required shots fast enough to be finished before they could be expected to respond to the warning.
• Also related to cover, we had some ROs make changes to the fault lines during the match that were intended to make things clearer for the shooters but in some cases actually coaxed them into foot faults. We'll need to have more specific rules about fault lines and make sure that anyone setting the fault lines does so properly.
• We had two complicated time-consuming stages plus the Classifier (which has three starts and requires specific ammo management). Thanks to some early arrivals we were able to keep the squads on time right up until the end, when we were about 15min late. Lesson for the future is to have one "signature" stage each match and keep the others quicker and more simple. Our belief is that folks would rather shoot sixty rounds in five simple stages than thirty rounds in three complicated ones. This also works out conveniently because unlike yesterday when we had six hours to get the match set up, in future months we're likely to have only two hours or so.

[Lon]

Todd,

Just read your blog on the match and was curious about something. Which techniques worked for people and which sucked? Did the shooters (or you) attribute the suckage to lack of practice of proper technique or just not knowing/never been taught a good flashlight technique?

[ToddG]

I'd like to keep this thread focused as much as possible on KSTG and its rules. If you want to start another thread about related issues, techniques, etc. that would be great.

[JAD]

I honestly didn't throw up my hands at IDPA -- I stopped playing for life reasons and not any of the (many, many) issues I had with the game. That said I haven't shot a national level match since 2000 and haven't shot a club match since '05, so this is way peanut gallery.

Getting people to shoot a bit more as if their life, rather than their standing, depends on it takes many of the elements you've talked about -- stick to your guns on accuracy, procedure, and most particularly cover. Do not warn on cover; life's cover warning comes with a bullet. Keep it your guys' game and your guys' rules and do not bend. Keep stages very small, very low on trickery and bullshit, and relatively low on round count. Two swingers were too many. Add a charger, they're worth the PITA and can be reasonably trouble free if done well. Make it a goal to have very few targets that are shot twice. Consider some McCaigs. Consider upping the no-shoot penalty. I've never agreed with those that feel that it should be a DNF or DQ -- you still survived -- but I get where they're coming from. Don't let people engage and reengage from the same position -- not sure if that came up on the swinger stage.

These are all kibbutzy bits that you MUST disregard if you don't agree -- people like me who push you to be more "tactical" may be viewed with the same suspicion as the gamers who want to make it more 'fair.'

Your pursuit is vain, futile, and will end up significantly lowering your opinion of humanity. I wish I lived out the so I could watch it first-hand, and help out if possible. Have fun with it!

[JodyH]

I set up the majority of our clubs ccw matches.
I usually have 5 stages.
One down and dirty fast stage with around 6 shots required.
Three stages of 10-14 rounds.
One big stage with 18 rounds.
Match round count is usually 65-75 but most people shoot close to 100.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[cclaxton]

My AAR after running the first match:

• Procedural penalties are brutal compared to other sports. Folks who didn't pay attention and earned procedurals were bit hard. Most of these were either related to cover or failure to move during mandated SOM courses of fire. Most of the penalties fell to folks with little or no prior competition experience. My belief, for the time being, is that as people become familiar with the rules and familiar with following instructions during a match the incidence of procedurals will drop. The penalty was purposely set high because we wanted breaking the rules to matter, not be something folks gamed or were willing to risk.
• We had two complicated time-consuming stages plus the Classifier (which has three starts and requires specific ammo management). Thanks to some early arrivals we were able to keep the squads on time right up until the end, when we were about 15min late. Lesson for the future is to have one "signature" stage each match and keep the others quicker and more simple. Our belief is that folks would rather shoot sixty rounds in five simple stages than thirty rounds in three complicated ones. This also works out conveniently because unlike yesterday when we had six hours to get the match set up, in future months we're likely to have only two hours or so.

Todd,
Is there a document showing the details of how each of us was scored in the match? I didn't get a chance to see how my penalties were calculated and my times for each stage and classifier. Excel would be perfect.
Thanks,

[cclaxton]

My AAR after running the first match:

• Accuracy penalty is brutal compared to other sports.
• Procedural penalties are brutal compared to other sports.
• Non-threat penalties are actually still pretty light unless you score an A-zone
• Failure to neutralize penalty really kicked a lot of people's butts on the stage with the swingers.
• SLG and I spoke for about an hour last night after the match regarding the cover rule.
• Also related to cover, we had some ROs make changes to the fault lines during the match
• We had two complicated time-consuming stages plus the Classifier (which has three starts and requires specific ammo management).

Todd,
1) I don't have an issue with the scoring...I think it is about right.
2) Procedurals seem about right as well.
3) The first swinger in front of the non-threats was a VERY DIFFICULT target to shoot, especially if you need to hit the head box. I would have designed that target to be a bit easier to hit.
4) I would hold hard on the cover rule...a FAULT warning is silly...the rule is the rule. (That being said, I still think you restrict COF design by having only one piece of tape on the floor...I think you need to work on that issue.)
5) Since the white head box is new, I recommend COF emphasizing more head shots and more targets with head shots only to get everyone better at hitting them. I wold put up ten targets representing ten gang members coming at you, staggerred 1-2 feet apart and two head shots per.
6) That is also a good case for tactical sequence....maybe you should reconsider the KSTG rule to allow COF that specifies tactical sequence?

I found the match good in that it showed me where I need to improve. Had fun.
Thanks,
CC