KSTG

[Tinygnat219]

ToddG,

TJ here from last nights KSTG Shoot. Just wanted to say Thank You once again for putting this match on. Myself and Kent (the revolver guy) had a good time. What I liked about this shoot is how it made me think about my gear selections and the direction I need to go to improve my skills.

Here's what I found that I think I need to work on:
- Remember the Flashlight. Mine is sitting in my vest at home. Having one with a clip is worth it. Baxter was nice enough to loan me his. I normally don't have one as part of my carry setup. That's gotta change.
- Night Sights are worth the extra money. They saved my ass on the lowlight shoot. They were handy, but a little confusing with the
Trijicon 3 dot setup I currently have. I am going to try and get all my carry guns setup for just the XS Big Dot front sight to eliminate future confusion.
- Mag holders are worth it. I normally don't carry one, but have a spare magazine in my pocket. I discovered that reloads go WAY faster with even the bulkiest of gear. I need to look at my gear for this one as I used a Police Surplus setup I got in a trade. It worked, but I am certain there are better ones out there that can assist me in improving my speed.
- Glock 19 Gen 4. Nice gun to shoot in this kind of game. I used to not like the grip of the Gen 4, but it worked very nice during the move and shoot. I have since re-evaluated my opinion and I have a MUCH higher opinion of the Glock 19 Generation 4.
-These games are not meant for revolvers. Way too many reloads needed and the round count for each stage is high. Still, since I do carry a J-Frame
from time to time, I want to try it out in a match like this sometime.


From Kent as to what he feels he needs to work on:
-Low Light Shooting/Flashlight work -- this is the first time I've ever done it, technique needs work
-Reloading -- I never practice reloading under stress...
-Off-Vertical Shooting -- shots land in funny places when the sights aren't perfectly horizontal/the gun isn't perfectly vertical
-Off-Balance Shooting -- shooting while leaning over feels unnatural (and it should)

Physical Issues:
-T-grip fell apart (and discovered that I shoot OK without it)
-Speedloaders and my current grips don't work well together
-Having a revolver with 6 rounds would sure have been nice for some targets/stages (last target on the 1st stage, for instance, needed six rounds)
-Handloads were too smoky for low-light/flash-light use (first shot and I lost my sight picture, all the smoke obscured the target, and all I could do was point-shoot for the rest of the stage)

Things that went well:
-"Adjusting-fire" to prefer the speed-strips to load instead of the speedloaders
-literally adjusting-fire during the FAST Drills when I discovered my shots were landing a little high
-point shooting works surprisingly well for me

All in all, we enjoyed the hell out of the match. I am going to write a nice letter to the person in charge of the Range and activities. This area is WAY too short on matches like this, and if I learned this much from one match such as this, I can only imagine the benefits of having more matches. I would like to see the rule about moonclip revolvers not being allowed possibly changed. That change might help more revolver shooters enter the fray. I have a S&W 940 and a Ruger SP101 in 9MM that I would love to try out in this kind of setup. That being said, we're looking forward to the next match.

Well Done!

TJ

[cclaxton]

Todd,
I enjoyed shooting the stages and classifier and here is my feedback:

1) I like the tape on the floor to indicate cover. However, I could see how this might limit stage design for targets that are at an acute angle to cover. Perhaps you could have different strips of tape for each target, but then stage setup gets more complicated.
2) I like the 3x5 white cards for the head shots...puts emphasis on getting into the brain chamber, but makes shooting fast much harder. OK by me, though.
3) I like the scoring system...it seems to put the emphasis where its needed.
4) I liked the simplicity of the classifier, but I actually missed the weak hand and strong hand only shots.
5) I kinda don't care about the mag drop rules...I can do it either way.
6) I like the rule about not crowding cover...that is the way I like to shoot anyway.

A) I like the consistency of an IDPA match where I know the gun is unloaded at the end of a COF. I do not like leaving the gun loaded and trying to remember how many I may or may not have in the mag. I recommend unloading the gun every time.
B) I don't like the 5" barrel restriction. The equipment rule should be like the IDPA rule: If it fits inside the box and weights less than X, where X is defined by Division, then its legal. If you want to make the box smaller or lower the weight, that is fine, but barrel length should not be a factor...size and weight should be. Beyond that, there are just too many Glock 34's in the hands of competitors. If you want this to catch on and gain political influence, you need to include Glock 34 shooters. Or, as I suggested, define a COMPACT DIVISION....which I still think is a huge opportunity.
C) For lowlight COF like the first stage, there should be a way to balance the advantage of gun-mounted lights with handheld lights or no light. Maybe add .5sec penalty for each target shot with a gun-mounted light?...don't know, but seems to be too much advantage there.

I think this experimental program is great, but in the end I think these ideas need to take root in the IDPA Tiger Teams and need to become a part of the changes coming to IDPA shooting sports. I just don't see KSTG being different enough that it can become a significant differentiator in competitive shooting. I do think it can act as a lab for trying out new ideas, which I am always willing to try.

But trust me on the Glock 34 thing.

CC

[PPGMD]

- Night Sights are worth the extra money. They saved my ass on the lowlight shoot. They were handy, but a little confusing with the
Trijicon 3 dot setup I currently have. I am going to try and get all my carry guns setup for just the XS Big Dot front sight to eliminate future confusion.

Another option is yellow tubes in the rear sight. If I have the option all my rear tubes are yellow.

[ToddG]

A) I like the consistency of an IDPA match where I know the gun is unloaded at the end of a COF. I do not like leaving the gun loaded and trying to remember how many I may or may not have in the mag. I recommend unloading the gun every time.

We ran it hot because it was a one-bay match and we have to put six people through every stage in an hour. Loading and unloading each person four or five times eats up minutes of our hour. It's a trade-off.

If you want to make the box smaller or lower the weight, that is fine,

Our box is smaller.

We had two people show up with G34s last night. One was chagrined and said he'd bring his G19 next time. The other was upset: "That's the stupidest rule I've ever heard, don't you know the G34 is the most popular gun in IDPA?" To which I simply responded that our game was based on CCW gear, not IDPA gear. It's noteworthy that the second person also admitted that a G19, not a G34, was the actual CCW gun carried every day.

C) For lowlight COF like the first stage, there should be a way to balance the advantage of gun-mounted lights with handheld lights or no light. Maybe add .5sec penalty for each target shot with a gun-mounted light?...don't know, but seems to be too much advantage there.

If there is an advantage to having a light on the gun, why would we penalize someone? We don't penalize people for having night sights, and they provide a huge benefit in low light. We don't penalize lasers. Etc. And since mounted lights are only allowed on stages where the gun begins out of the holster, anyone with a WML-capable gun can use one even if he doesn't normally CCW that way or have a holster that accommodates a light. For stages that begin in the holster, no one can use a WML.

I just don't see KSTG being different enough that it can become a significant differentiator in competitive shooting.

We're not trying to create the next USPSA or IDPA. We made rules for a game that we wanted to play. It doesn't need to grow. It might never go beyond the NRA Range club matches. But until we see what the IDPA Tiger Teams actually do -- will they allow aiwb? will they eliminate the round dumping rule? will they fix their ridiculous reload rules? -- there's no telling what might happen there.

[b]I don't shoot IDPA because I don't like some of the rules.[b] If someone says I don't shoot KSTG because I don't like some of the rules, that is perfectly OK with us. We're not trying to be all things to all people.

[PPGMD]

Ok I wasn't there so my opinion is based on watching the videos. The cover lines really limit things.

Based on the video it seems that the cover lines are based on the furthermost out target. But the problem with that, in order to stay in his cover while engaging the other targets you have to bend pretty far over based on the videos. Being that far over isn't a position that everyone can do, I know for me doing that on the right hand side can be troublesome these days.

IMO this is a problem that IDPA has been trying to deal with for the longest time, and there really isn't a good solution.

[BN]

So the guy who honestly CCWs a .38 every day will have to go out and buy specialized competition-only gear just to play.[/list]

Todd, I don't think .38 revolvers will be able to play if the power factor is kept at 300fpe. I haven't found any factory .38 special loads that will make it.

[ToddG]

You're exactly right, Bill. We know we need to change the power floor issue.

G34 Thought of the Day: Every time someone tells us we have to include the G34 because it's the predominant gun in IDPA, it just proves our point that if we allow it, people will use the G34 instead of their practical CCW gun.

[kle]

Two reasons. which I'm sure were outlined previously in the thread:

1. The number of people who actually carry moon clip revolvers every day is very close to zero.
2. If moon clip revolvers are allowed, moon clip revolvers will be necessary. You won't be competitive unless you have a moon clip revolver. So the guy who honestly CCWs a .38 every day will have to go out and buy specialized competition-only gear just to play.

The S&W 442-1 Pro Series that I used last night (and is in fact my EDC) is factory-machined to use moonclips (though rounds can still headspace on the rim), and I keep it loaded with 5 moonclipped-rounds (if for no other reason than loading and unloading it when I need to is easier and I don't have to fiddle with loose rounds or a loading device). I actually missed the rule prohibiting moonclips (EDIT: or I was working from an earlier version of the rules that didn't have the moonclip-prohibition); I ran the gun last night without them anyway because I figured it was in the spirit of the rules (and conincidentally it was within the letter of the rules, too), with the calibers being limited to the popular rimmed, not-usually-moonclipped revolver calibers (.38SPL, .357 Mag, .44SPL, .44 Mag).

I agree that those who carry revolvers-only are probably few and far between, and among them even fewer will carry moonclip-capable revolvers, and I'm confident that those who HAVE moonclip-capable revolvers will almost certainly also have one that can use non-moonclipped ammo (and also conforms to the KSTG rules). So I'm in favor of keeping the rules as they are.

[SLG]

The S&W 442-1 Pro Series that I used last night (and is in fact my EDC) is factory-machined to use moonclips (though rounds can still headspace on the rim), and I keep it loaded with 5 moonclipped-rounds (if for no other reason than loading and unloading it when I need to is easier and I don't have to fiddle with loose rounds or a loading device). I actually missed the rule prohibiting moonclips (EDIT: or I was working from an earlier version of the rules that didn't have the moonclip-prohibition); I ran the gun last night without them anyway because I figured it was in the spirit of the rules (and conincidentally it was within the letter of the rules, too), with the calibers being limited to the popular rimmed, not-usually-moonclipped revolver calibers (.38SPL, .357 Mag, .44SPL, .44 Mag).

I agree that those who carry revolvers-only are probably few and far between, and among them even fewer will carry moonclip-capable revolvers, and I'm confident that those who HAVE moonclip-capable revolvers will almost certainly also have one that can use non-moonclipped ammo (and also conforms to the KSTG rules). So I'm in favor of keeping the rules as they are.

Finally! A guy who actually carries a revolver, who actually competed with it (even though it wasn't the most "competitive " choice), who actually carries moon clips, who actually understands why the rules don't allow moon clips, and who is actually ok with it. Good show!

Maybe a G34 shooter will learn something from kle.

[CMG]

G34 Thought of the Day: Every time someone tells us we have to include the G34 because it's the predominant gun in IDPA, it just proves our point that if we allow it, people will use the G34 instead of their practical CCW gun.

The flip side to this is you will know when KSTG becomes popular because Glock will build a special pistol to take maximum advantage of your limitations.