KSTG

[TGS]

-- Not sure I follow your math. The recoil of a 200 grain bullet going 1000 fps is the same regardless of what gun it's coming out of, I would think. Anyway, this all falls I line with my general distaste for chronos at matches. Since this is a club match (or 'festival,' as we like to call them out here in the midwest), I'd use hard-set steel. Poppers that barely fall to 45 or 10 full-house loads with an upper-third hit, sprinkled liberally throughout the match. It allows you to throw out major / minor distinctions, chronos, and the lot. Of course it favors heavy-duty service pistols, but so does life.

If a 200gr bullet does 1000fps in a 3.5" barrel, that same load will be going much faster in a 5" barrel.

So, if something makes 125pf in a 3.5", it's probably going to make 132pf in a 5" barrel(I'm not being scientific, no one jump on my guesstimate numbers as me stating fact).

[fuse]

I have seen exactly that -- right down to it being Speer brass -- before in a match that required folks to shoot their duty ammo. Give a valuable enough prize of even just serious recognition for the winner and someone will push limits. That is why you have power floors in the first place. Otherwise you could just say, "everyone shoot standard ammo, ok?"

[jlw]

If a 200gr bullet does 1000fps in a 3.5" barrel, that same load will be going much faster in a 5" barrel.

So, if something makes 125pf in a 3.5", it's probably going to make 132pf in a 5" barrel(I'm not being scientific, no one jump on my guesstimate numbers as me stating fact).

But it is still 125 in that particular competitor's gun.

[fuse]

Our local CCW match rules are way more lenient than the KSTG rules and we don't really have any problems with an escalating equipment "arms race".

I reckon IDPA started out the same way.

[ToddG]

The competitor shoots five rounds of the control ammo and 5 rounds of their own ammo through their gun and the average PF must be within 5.

This has promise. The downside I see is administrative. The match will have to buy a substantial volume of ammo in many different calibers, not all of which will get used. And it will take more than twice as long to get chrono results.

How about using JodyH's plan only for a gun that otherwise fails to meet a standard power floor? So for example, we say PF 125 out of your gun. If you make standard PF out of your gun, chrono test is over. If you fail to make the power floor, you then need to be within no more than 5PF of <the index ammo>.

-- Not sure I follow your math. The recoil of a 200 grain bullet going 1000 fps is the same regardless of what gun it's coming out of, I would think.

No. The amount of powder charge necessary to make a 200gr bullet go 1,000fps out of a 3.5" barrel is substantially greater than the charge needed to make it go that same velocity from a 5" barrel.

I reckon IDPA started out the same way.

Not so much. If anything, the early shared drafts of the IDPA rulebook had some crazy equipment rules, most of which were related to allowed and disallowed gun modifications. For example, it was going to be legal to checker the front strap of a .45 1911, but not a 9mm 1911. The current IDPA gun rules are pretty well thought out.

[BN]

My only concern with this method is how they come about the average velocities. Are they with 4" guns, 3" guns, etc.? Around here, the most common carry guns (at least from the myriad of shooters I know from competition and classes, etc.) are the subcompact semi-autos - the baby Glocks, the M&Pc models, the Kahrs, the XD compacts, etc. Will these guns make the velocities needed by using catalog data? That's the million dollar question.

I think whatever ammo floors you set should be set with these type guns in mind.

I ran some of my 9mm IDPA load over the chrono using several different guns, from a 5 inch 1911 to a G-26.

This is the load I have been shooting for several years. It is a max load of Titegroup (3.5 grains) over a 147 grain Montana Gold CMJ with an OAL of 1.140". Brass was mixed range pick up. I like to load to needed power factor plus at least 5 pf for a cushion. Those of you that have had your ammo chronoed at a major match know that voodoo is involved.

A few years ago I shot the back to back USPSA Ohio State Championship and the next day the US IPSC Nationals. I shot the exact same gun and ammo (Model 10 S&W, .38 Special) both days. The first day my load went 138 PF and the next day it went 133 PF. The only difference was that I went to chrono in the morning one day and the afternoon the other day.

1911 five inch: ave velocity: 893, Power Factor: 131.3

Glock 17 #1, 4.5" barrel : ave velocity: 889, PF: 130.6

Glock 17 #2, 4.5" Barrel : ave velocity: 891, PF: 130.9

Glock 19 4 " barrel : ave velocity: 870, PF: 127.9

Glock 26 3.5" barrel : ave velocity: 857, PF 125.9

I forgot my Kahr PM9 which I think has a 3" barrel.

I loaded 8 rounds in each pistol, then fired 2 rounds at a steel plate to warm up the barrel before shooting 6 shots from each pistol over the chrono. I held the pistol level for each shot. IDPA stipulates that the muzzle be raised before each shot so the powder will settle near the primer. It DOES make a difference.

It would be interesting to shoot several factory loads over the chrono through a sampling of different barrel lengths. Are published velocities even close to what you would get from a CCW barrel length?

Before IDPA changed the Power factor in SSR to 105000 they shot a bunch of available factory ammo over the chrono. Not much made a 125 power factor.

Just a few bits of info to use.

Bill

[fuse]

IDPA stipulates that the muzzle be raised before each shot so the powder will settle near the primer. It DOES make a difference.
l

Very interesting! Thanks.

[jar]

IDPA stipulates that the muzzle be raised before each shot so the powder will settle near the primer. It DOES make a difference.

Yup. In some cases a BIG difference, namely small charges of fast powders in big cases. IIRC a friend told me it was 50 fps difference with clays in 38 special with 158gr bullets.

[theblacknight]

In IDPA some folks do not shoot the classifier to their potential so they will be classified lower and compete at that lower classification, in other words sandbag.

By making the classifier a stage of the match you need to shoot it the best you can or give up match position.

While sad, is this really bad? IDK i havent shot a big match yet but, who wants to win Expert SSP when they could be competing in Master? Isnt that like bragging about having high GPA in the 9th grade?

[jetfire]

who wants to win Expert SSP when they could be competing in Master? Isnt that like bragging about having high GPA in the 9th grade?

Yes it is, and yet people do it ALL THE TIME. I've known guys who will have "accidents" on classifiers like dropping their mags or missing headshots to stay in Expert or B class instead of moving up where it's more difficult.