KSTG

[ToddG]

From what I gathered from the actual match announcement thread, these are 50 round, or thereabouts matches right? Why not just pick a commonly available load for each caliber, make that the standard, and only allow that.

What if that particular load in your caliber is sold out? What if you want to zero your gun... now you're forced to have a dedicated gun for the game or keep your gun zeroed to this particular load regardless of what else you might normally shoot. What if you want to function test your gun but don't want to pay for factory ammo? What if you want to practice with your "match" ammo? Heck, what if for some odd reason that particular load isn't reliable in your gun but lots of other ammo, including your carry ammo, is just fine?

There's a reason so many competitive shooters reload, and it's not just to get the wimpiest allowable load.

If people are so intent on cheating on a 50 round match that they reload Speer brass to recoil less and be easier to shoot, well then...wow.

I have seen exactly that -- right down to it being Speer brass -- before in a match that required folks to shoot their duty ammo. Give a valuable enough prize of even just serious recognition for the winner and someone will push limits. That is why you have power floors in the first place. Otherwise you could just say, "everyone shoot standard ammo, ok?"

[rsa-otc]

How soo?

In IDPA some folks do not shoot the classifier to their potential so they will be classified lower and compete at that lower classification, in other words sandbag.

By making the classifier a stage of the match you need to shoot it the best you can or give up match position.

[JodyH]

I'd shoot the rules as written.
But then again I shoot USPSA Limited with a 15 round 9mm from AIWB concealed...

Our local CCW match rules are way more lenient than the KSTG rules and we don't really have any problems with an escalating equipment "arms race".

[jlw]

There are problems with that too.

My competitive shooting world is limited to GSSF and IDPA and some local stuff. I also shoot using factory ammo most of the time as I don't hand load at present.

However, it seems to me that if the PF is supposed to be X, that the rounds a given competitor is using should be fired through that competitor's gun. Wouldn't this make certain that the competitor is meeting PF with their gun and ammo?

What am I missing?

[ToddG]

What am I missing?

A round that makes 125 PF in a 3.5" gun is going to be a lot hotter than a round that makes 125 PF in a 5" gun. So by forcing the load to make PF in the competitor's gun, you force guys with shorter pistols to shoot hotter loads. (phrasing)

[jlw]

A round that makes 125 PF in a 3.5" gun is going to be a lot hotter than a round that makes 125 PF in a 5" gun. So by forcing the load to make PF in the competitor's gun, you force guys with shorter pistols to shoot hotter loads. (phrasing)

I get that to a point, but if the rule says you have to shoot 125PF, then your gun and ammo should have to produce 125PF. If your load is making PF in a 5" gun, but I shoot your load in a 4.5" gun, am I not to a point getting to shoot below the PF?

[JDM]

What if that particular load in your caliber is sold out? What if you want to zero your gun... now you're forced to have a dedicated gun for the game or keep your gun zeroed to this particular load regardless of what else you might normally shoot. What if you want to function test your gun but don't want to pay for factory ammo? What if you want to practice with your "match" ammo? Heck, what if for some odd reason that particular load isn't reliable in your gun but lots of other ammo, including your carry ammo, is just fine?

There's a reason so many competitive shooters reload, and it's not just to get the wimpiest allowable load.



I have seen exactly that -- right down to it being Speer brass -- before in a match that required folks to shoot their duty ammo. Give a valuable enough prize of even just serious recognition for the winner and someone will push limits. That is why you have power floors in the first place. Otherwise you could just say, "everyone shoot standard ammo, ok?"

I can see how reasonableness and fairness is so hard to achieve in things like this.

[JodyH]

What about having a box of "control ammo" ie: Winchester Value Pack to chrono against?
The competitor shoots five rounds of the control ammo and 5 rounds of their own ammo through their gun and the average PF must be within 5.
This takes most of the variables out.
If the control ammo is PF 115 through my Kahr PM9, then my chosen ammunition has to be 110+ through that same Kahr PM9.
If the control comes out of my H&K P30 at PF 128, then my ammo has to PF at 123+ out of my P30.

[SLG]

I get that to a point, but if the rule says you have to shoot 125PF, then your gun and ammo should have to produce 125PF. If your load is making PF in a 5" gun, but I shoot your load in a 4.5" gun, am I not to a point getting to shoot below the PF?

The real issue we care about is not what PF your ammo is. It is that your ammo is appropriate for the mission. Ammo that is appropriate in a 5" gun is often (not always) appropriate in a 3.5" gun, yet going by velocity, the 3.5" gun doesn't make it. The PF test is just A way of ensuring that people don't cheat. It's not the best way. If we could just trust people to shoot factory power ammo, without a test, that would be great. It just isn't possible. Shooters who may be honest in all sorts of ways just seem to have to cheat in competition. I've seen and heard it too many times, and while I won't name names on a forum, I do not associate with any of the people who I know to have cheated in a match. sorry for the rant.

[JAD]

A round that makes 125 PF in a 3.5" gun is going to be a lot hotter than a round that makes 125 PF in a 5" gun. So by forcing the load to make PF in the competitor's gun, you force guys with shorter pistols to shoot hotter loads. (phrasing)

-- Not sure I follow your math. The recoil of a 200 grain bullet going 1000 fps is the same regardless of what gun it's coming out of, I would think. Anyway, this all falls I line with my general distaste for chronos at matches. Since this is a club match (or 'festival,' as we like to call them out here in the midwest), I'd use hard-set steel. Poppers that barely fall to 45 or 10 full-house loads with an upper-third hit, sprinkled liberally throughout the match. It allows you to throw out major / minor distinctions, chronos, and the lot. Of course it favors heavy-duty service pistols, but so does life.