KSTG

[jthhapkido]

The muzzle velocity/barrel length thing is a PITA. The old IDPA rule was best (longest barrel legal in the division) and if we did that, odds are we'd allow less than a 10% reduction over advertised velocity. But it requires a collection of guns and as was discussed in another thread here recently, that's onerous enough for some clubs/groups that it needs to be avoided.

Measuring with the competitor's gun you get another advantage for longer-barreled guns. They can shoot weaker ammo and still make the power floor.

Some sort of step function? (Nothing like making it complicated...) With a 4+ inch barrel, within 5% of the average velocity, with a 3 inch barrel, within 10%? [sigh] Pretty soon you'll have a formula that requires a computer.

One of the things that I always liked about the Pro-Am is that they don't have a power floor at all---they don't care what you are shooting. EXCEPT that they say the steel must fall to score, and if it didn't fall, your ammo is too weak and it is just too bad. No reshoots. (Of course, they can do that because all of the targets are steel.)

[theblacknight]

as mentioned gamed.

How soo?

[DocGKR]

"We had a specific purpose in mind when we wrote these rules. If there are some people who don't like that their IDPA gun or USPSA ammo isn't legal, we understand 100%. But we're not going to compromise our principles (or the game's principles) to allow gear we don't think is appropriate. Because, well, that would be inappropriate."

Yet there is a lot of compromising going on in the name of making the game easier and less realistic...

---------------------------

"The problem, as mentioned by someone earlier, is that it creates an equipment race for anyone who wants to compete with a revo but only own a 6-shot. If we have to choose between forcing either all the 6-shot owners to buy 8-shots or all the 8-shot owners to buy 6-shots, we're going with the latter."

Why would the 6-shot shooters be forced to purchase an 8-shot? When competing with guys using 10 rd pistol mags in stages designed around 10 shot mags, the 6 shot is simply re-loading a bit earlier than the revolver shooter with a 7 or 8 shot.

"I've never met anyone who CCWs a 6" revolver."

I personally CCW'd a 5" N-frame while in parts of the country where the local fauna had the potential to eat me for a snack and knew a couple of folks running 6" N-frames the same way...

"Change scoring to: A-Zone = 5 points, B & C Zones = 1 point, D Zone = zero points to better reflect anatomic an physiologic reality."

"We actually originally had almost exactly that as a scoring system. The problem is that it makes the disaster factor too high for misses and people said they wouldn't come play. As it is, the penalty for missing into the C-zone is twice what it is in IDPA (which is already many times higher than IPSC)."

Too bad, so sad that some wimps don't want to compete in something that is a bit more realistic and rewards the whole "aim small, miss small" and "speed is fine, accuracy is final" ethic that so many espouse. Turns out the "disaster factor" for misses in the real world is even higher...

"The problem is that you cannot DQ a stage, it would essentially take them out of the game altogether. While again there might be a realistic component to training that way, from a competition standpoint you cannot have all-or-nothing shots like that."

Shooting a hostage/family member/innocent in the real world does more than "take you out of the game altogether". Why can't there be all-or-nothing shots--seems to me it might induce the ideal level of stress to really make shooters focus and take a shot VERY seriously. There are a lot of other shooting disciplines that let folks masturbate their shots away, why not make an event for folks that are truly serious about their craft?

"Couldn't agree more that it's a BS distinction in terms of ballistic efficacy. But the Maj/min distinction is not made based on how much damage the bullet would do, it's made based on realistic assessment of the greater (and/or perceived) difficulty of shooting a major-PF handgun. If it's harder to get the same hits with a full power .45 than a power floor 9mm, the full power .45 guy needs some incentive to feel like he's on even ground. In IPSC, they weighted it so far toward the Major guy that it's almost stupid to shoot anything but Major. In IDPA, they created whole different divisions to split the two power factors."

Well, if they don't feel they have an advantage shooting their larger caliber firearm, maybe they should re-think what they are carrying...

Seriously.

"I still really prefer the idea of having just a slightly smaller body A-zone for folks shooting minor (7" vs 8") because it would be fairly easy to score and administer. But it would require a custom target."

Bad guy anatomy and physiology does not change depending on what caliber handgun the good guys are carrying, why should the required target zone change? Seems illogical, artificial, and game-like.

"Again, the goal here is to give folks who own or are issued a DA/SA pistol a sense that they don't need to go out and buy a 1911 or SFA to compete."

Please...if they don't feel they have an advantage shooting their DA/SA handgun, maybe they should re-think what they are carrying. For folks mandated by policy to shoot a DA/SA, then I suspect this will give them a greater and more realistic form of practice--again, the bad guys don't care and don't react differently whether you have an SA, LEM/DAK, or DA/SA pistol. Besides, folks like you and Ernie have proven that DA/SA can compete with the SA and striker fired guns just fine.

"As discussed, it's not about wound ballistics."

On practical levels, it should be...

For minimum Power Factor, just set-up a steel plate with the requisite resistance force--if the competitor's load fired out of their handgun drops the plate, they are in, if not, then the load didn't meet the required PF...pretty simple.

[jlw]

As far a the power floor thing goes, that should be measured with the specific competitor's pistol across the board in all of the sports...

[Wheeler]

As far a the power floor thing goes, that should be measured with the specific competitor's pistol across the board in all of the sports...

I agree, it would be rather difficult to provide a larger gun of all types to make PF.

[SLG]

As far a the power floor thing goes, that should be measured with the specific competitor's pistol across the board in all of the sports...

There are problems with that too.

[JDM]

Why not list 5ish ammo types for each caliber allowed that are sure to make the requirements? If you reload, duplicate that load.

[SLG]

Why not list 5ish ammo types for each caliber allowed that are sure to make the requirements? If you reload, duplicate that load.

I'm all for that, but too many people are not honest.

[JDM]

It boggles my mind that people would BS something like that.

From what I gathered from the actual match announcement thread, these are 50 round, or thereabouts matches right? Why not just pick a commonly available load for each caliber, make that the standard, and only allow that.

For instance say you designate Speer Lawman. It comes in every flavor under the sun. It's loaded stoutly, and is easy to find. For 100 bucks, you could have enough "match ammo" for 8 matches.

If people are so intent on cheating on a 50 round match that they reload Speer brass to recoil less and be easier to shoot, well then...wow.

Keep in mind the above is coming from someone with what amounts to zero competition experience, so it may be utter nonsense. If so, disregard.

[ToddG]

Yet there is a lot of compromising going on in the name of making the game easier and less realistic.

There are some things that need to be compromises or else it's no longer a fair game. As SLG said to me on the phone a while ago, while the idea of true man-vs-man, shoot what you brought, last man left alive is the winner type game has emotional appeal it's rather impractical.

Why would the 6-shot shooters be forced to purchase an 8-shot? When competing with guys using 10 rd pistol mags in stages designed around 10 shot mags, the 6 shot is simply re-loading a bit earlier than the revolver shooter with a 7 or 8 shot.

Because for the "High Revolver" they're shooting against one another but not any of the auto guys. It's completely conceivable that there would be stages or strings where a guy with an 8-shot gun wouldn't need to reload and a guy with a 6-shot would.

I personally CCW'd a 5" N-frame while in parts of the country where the local fauna had the potential to eat me for a snack and knew a couple of folks running 6" N-frames the same way...

And I know folks who CCW G34's. As discussed earlier, we had to draw a line somewhere between "anything anyone says is his real CCW" and objective enforceable rules. There will definitely be people left out (or forced to buy something other than their CCW gear) by our rules if they want to play. There's no getting around that. Otherwise, the guy who swears he CCWs his 28-shot comp'd C-more STI race gun in a ghost holster every day gets to play. And then everyone else will need -- or at least think they need -- that gun to be competitive. And the idea of having a game that is accessible to the mainstream CCW guy goes out the window.

We could just as easily have folks complaining that the stages aren't required to be 5 shots or less for the bazillion people who opt to carry a j-frame and no reload. Again, we're not saying they have to change their lifestyle but that doesn't fit within the brackets we've set for this particular game.

Too bad, so sad that some wimps don't want to compete in something that is a bit more realistic and rewards the whole "aim small, miss small" and "speed is fine, accuracy is final" ethic that so many espouse. Turns out the "disaster factor" for misses in the real world is even higher...

KSTG has twice the penalty for points down as IDPA which is itself already far more accuracy intensive than USPSA.

One of the stated goals is to be fun. Having a single lapse in judgment or twitch of the finger ruin your match experience is not fun. It would be like getting kicked out of a class the first time you make a mistake.

Shooting a hostage/family member/innocent in the real world does more than "take you out of the game altogether".

I used to feel the same way but think about it like this: You're in a horribly bad and chaotic situation, like an active shooter at the mall during Christmas season. For whatever reason you fight rather than flee (because no one wants to shoot a match where "run away" is the winning strategy). You take out two of the three bad guys and then in all the chaos you shoot an innocent 8 year old in the arm. Do you stop fighting?

Why can't there be all-or-nothing shots--seems to me it might induce the ideal level of stress to really make shooters focus and take a shot VERY seriously. There are a lot of other shooting disciplines that let folks masturbate their shots away, why not make an event for folks that are truly serious about their craft?

All I can say is that we feel that the much higher penalties we've created for poor accuracy and hitting non-threats achieve that goal in a reasonable manner. Again, think of it in terms of a class. Someone spends hundreds of dollars to travel to a class, invests time away from home and possibly work, and then fifteen minutes into the shooting he hits a designated "hostage." Do you kick him out and send him home? How many people are going to take a class from that instructor under those circumstances?

Well, if they don't feel they have an advantage shooting their larger caliber firearm, maybe they should re-think what they are carrying...

You know I agree with you 100% on that. I don't even sleep with a box of 357SIG under my pillow anymore because of you.

What we want to do is encourage folks to use their real gear. And a lot of folks' real gear is not 9mm. You've said yourself that if you were on a patrol assignment with your department you'd probably opt for a .40-cal pistol due to factors that aren't related to how fast or accurately you can put holes in cardboard. We want to let that guy, the one who chooses a .40 for reasons other than gaming it, to get some benefit or recognition.

Bad guy anatomy and physiology does not change depending on what caliber handgun the good guys are carrying, why should the required target zone change? Seems illogical, artificial, and game-like.

It is artificial and game-like. It's a game. It's completely logical, however.

The only meaningful difference between major and minor caliber guns (in game terms) is recoil. Recoil affects shot speed. The more accurate you need to be, the more time you need to take. So the calculus works out that if you're shooting a more powerful, heavier recoiling gun and want to be on even footing (same speed) as someone shooting a puff load, you will shoot slightly less accurately. So in terms of making things fair for a game the 7"/8" idea is attractive.

Please...if they don't feel they have an advantage shooting their DA/SA handgun, maybe they should re-think what they are carrying. For folks mandated by policy to shoot a DA/SA, then I suspect this will give them a greater and more realistic form of practice--again, the bad guys don't care and don't react differently whether you have an SA, LEM/DAK, or DA/SA pistol. Besides, folks like you and Ernie have proven that DA/SA can compete with the SA and striker fired guns just fine.

SLG and I actually spoke about this earlier today. We're in agreement with you in principle. But it's not like DA guns get their own division. Like revolvers, they're fighting head-to-head with everyone else. There's simply a recognition by means of the 'special category' award for the guy who shoots one the best. Because again we want to encourage the guy who is issued a SIG P226 to use his real gun instead of running out and buying a 9mm 1911 to be competitive.

We're trying to be social engineers.

For minimum Power Factor, just set-up a steel plate with the requisite resistance force--if the competitor's load fired out of their handgun drops the plate, they are in, if not, then the load didn't meet the required PF...pretty simple.

Changing that to two plates -- one for major and one for minor -- it would be great as long as it was possible to calibrate them that closely and consistently across multiple clubs and events all over the country. Since that's probably not possible, it won't work. Believe me, I think it's a great solution even though I imagine we'd both agree that momentum is no better a measure of terminal performance than energy.