Risk

[breakingtime91]

How do you measure risk when it comes to carrying a fire arm?

1)Does shoot-ability outweigh safety?

For example, longer first pull (TDA,LEM,DAK, DAO) or manual safety on a gun instead of something like a G19? *I understand all of these guns can be shot to high levels/carried safely but some have been labeled safer or easier*


2)Do you carry appendix but train owb? If yes, why. If you solely train your carry position, why?

*this is more of a gear question*:
3) Do square range advantages always influence you to change to that gear?

For example, if you can pick up a fiber optic front better in good lighting does that mean you no longer use night sights on your carry gun?

This is for discussion, please do not dilute it with common themes here of "we have already talked about this" or "special snowflakes". I have been here awhile now and I have noticed different trends over the years and am genuinely interested to see where people have ended up or if their opinions have stayed the same

[Robinson]

1) I carry a 1911, and I think it offers a good combination of shoot-ability and safety with its multiple safety mechanisms. Of course the user's brain must be engaged and proper technique must be used in order for the safeties to work correctly.

2) In all the pistol training classes I've attended the gun was holstered OWB at the 4:00 position because that's how I carried at the time. I am transitioning to AIWB carry (I have an AIWB 1911 holster on order). I tried this method of carry a while back with a 4" K Frame and a Beretta M9A1 and it worked okay for me.

3) I go back and forth about whether I want night sights on my carry gun. Currently I don't have them and I think I would be able to see my sights in most situations I might find myself in. But I also realize that it is not a certainty. I think tritium sights and/or a white light or laser are more of a benefit on a home defense weapon.

As far as other gear or modifications that give an advantage, I believe that a magwell does help with reloads on a 1911 but I don't currently have my guns equipped with them because the full sized grip is already big enough. I have in the past installed the S&A combination arched mainspring housing / magwell because the arched MSH eliminates the sharp corner of the grip frame and makes it less likely to print. I have indecision issues on the whole arched/flat MSH thing anyway though. Arched points better for me.

[Chance]

How do you measure risk when it comes to carrying a fire arm?

1)Does shoot-ability outweigh safety?

I recently switched to appendix carry, and because I'm not familiar with it, I switched to LEM. Once I grow more comfortable with the carry style, I may switch back to Glocks, or something else.

2)Do you carry appendix but train owb? If yes, why. If you solely train your carry position, why?

I only put reps in with my EDC gear. I'm not interested in being a high-level competitor, so I've nothing to gain by training with another setup. The only time I'd train OWB is if a class didn't permit AIWB, or if the range didn't allow drawing from the holster period, or something.

3) Do square range advantages always influence you to change to that gear?

Nope.

[David S.]

1. I personally will not carry a gun with that doesn't have a way to control the firing pin. Either a hammer or striker control device. Todd taught me that. There are enough good options that I see no reason for me to pick a gun that doesn't have that capability.

2. It depends on what I'm focusing on during that session. If I'm working on sight alignment and trigger control, then I'll use a 3 o'clock OWB holster. If I'm focusing on presentation, then AIWB. I haven't seen any evidence that using a 3 o'clock holster contaminates my AIWB draw.

3. Hard to tell. I don't think so. Except, I primarily carry a full size instead of a compact sized gun because: mag pinch on reload. I do that in spite of the fact that I don't normally carry a reload. So maybe.

[GuanoLoco]

>> 1)Does shoot-ability outweigh safety?

>> For example, longer first pull (TDA,LEM,DAK, DAO) or manual safety on a gun instead of something like a G19? *I understand all of these guns can be shot to high levels/carried safely but some have been labeled safer or easier*

I have recently been shooting my carry Glock 19, FO front sight, BattleHook rear sight, $0.25 polish job, Ghost Connector, 6 bl 6 oz trigger in competition. Normally I shoot an EAA Tanfoglio Stock 2 in 9mm, with a 5 lb +/- DA, a 2.5 lb +/- SA (depending on how I have it sprung) and a longer sight radius.

I am not that concerned with the relatively heavy Glock "Safe Action" trigger with respect to safety, but I train and shoot a lot in competitions relative to most. Before the Stock 2, I shot a Glock 34 in competition.

After about 6 weeks of weeknight match practice and an unacceptably small amount of dry fire I was able to shoot 88% of the match winner last night - acceptably close to my capability with a dedicated gamer gun. When I first switched I was lucky to shoot 60% of the match winner - my times were similar but my accuracy was FAR worse with the heavier/worse trigger, shorter sight radius and lighter gun. Note the usual match winner shoots +/- 10% better than me on average.

>> 2)Do you carry appendix but train owb? If yes, why. If you solely train your carry position, why?

I shoot competition OWB (USPSA Production). I EDC OWB almost always for comfort as I work from home. I usually convert to AIWB when I need to venture out into various Semi or Non-Permissive Environments. For more forgiving environments I may choose to somewhat poorly conceal OWB for comfort. I live in a warm climate and this is easier in our relatively few colder months.

I have recently acquired a Keepers Concealment AIWB rig and have done some modest dry fire so I am not too embarrassed in an upcoming class with Mr. White. I've not yet shot it in outlaw weeknight competition, mostly because I don't want to encourage our less experienced shooters to emulate me.

>> *this is more of a gear question*:
>> 3) Do square range advantages always influence you to change to that gear?

>> For example, if you can pick up a fiber optic front better in good lighting does that mean you no longer use night sights on your carry gun?

I currently shoot 2x+ a week, 1 indoor weeknight match and a weekend outdoor match or training session. I've taken a low light class from Frank Proctor. Based on his class and my testing a flat black rear and a FO front sight seem to work best for me across all environments. For low light/no light I EDC a PT1L flashlight that I will cheek index with my off hand, illuminate my sights and shoot Strong Hand Only. This seems to work pretty well in practice, much better than other methods I tried.

>> This is for discussion, please do not dilute it with common themes here of "we have already talked about this" or "special snowflakes". I have been here awhile now and I have noticed different trends over the years and am genuinely interested to see where people have ended up or if their opinions have stayed the same

I AM a special snowflake, I don't care what anyone else thinks.

[PNWTO]

1) It is balance and a little dissonance. I completely appreciate why many here run a DA auto AIWB. I have a G19, I shoot it well and really don't care for variety. When I am more financially free to experiment, a Langdon PX4C will be mine. Shit, I'm constantly on the edge of going to 1911 only with a Kramer IWB at 4:00, but that's a different topic.

2) Only if weather and/or administrative rules tell me to.
3) Not really.

[JAD]

1) It's an interesting question because for me it's a two axis question, not one -- safety, shootability, and capacity. The most shootable gun for me is the 1911; it's also the safest gun in my hands, because of the dedication with which I've approached running the thumb safety. It is not great for capacity. Glock 17s are a go for capacity and I can usually shoot them OK, but are very low on the safety scale to me, specifically while reholstering, which I do a lot. The P30 that's digging into my inguinal crease at the moment runs high on safety and capacity and is one of the least shootable guns I own. It's in my waistband because while I can't change how capacious or safe it is, how shootable it is is entirely up to me. Change the things you can, accept what you can't change, sort of thing, thank you Mr. Niebuhr.

2) When I carry appendix on a range day I train appendix. I don't carry appendix that often becuse most days I wear open front concealment with a tucked in dress shirt.

3) I don't think so.

[Mr_White]

How do you measure risk when it comes to carrying a fire arm?

I would say that I don't measure it. I don't feel like that's something that lends itself well to a measurement that's useful to me, and tend to make decisions more in accordance with my beliefs about different guns, my own abilities, and thresholds of emotional comfort. More qualitative than quantitative I guess?

Examples: I don't care if some stats were to show that, say, there are more NDs with striker fired guns than other types. Most of the people that comprise that hypothetical statistic suck at handling guns, almost guaranteed. I don't care if someone can offer examples of people NDing in conjunction with AIWB holsters and dying as a result. I think the people that comprise that hypothetical statistic allowed the gun to point at themselves (I could know that largely but not completely by virtue of the fact that the bullet hit them instead of going somewhere else) and I control that, probably very differently and better than they did. I don't care if someone can show me numbers suggesting that an aftermarket trigger bar for a Glock maintains the same level of mechanical safety as in a stock Glock. I don't care, I'm still not using it, because at the emotional level, I do not trust aftermarket items that so directly and strongly affect the fire control parts.

1)Does shoot-ability outweigh safety?

For example, longer first pull (TDA,LEM,DAK, DAO) or manual safety on a gun instead of something like a G19? *I understand all of these guns can be shot to high levels/carried safely but some have been labeled safer or easier*

For me, yes, probably, but I also don't think I'm anywhere near the extreme end of that spectrum. I use a Glock with a modestly-light trigger that uses all the important OEM components. I have faith in the general mechanical safety of the gun. And I recognize that that is faith, but I think it's well-founded. I have faith in my ability to carry out my excellent training. I believe the appendix holster I use, the way I use it, mitigates the potential safety issues of the appendix position specifically and holster work in general. Those are the safety thresholds I am emotionally and intellectually comfortable with. If I didn't have those thresholds, I would change something until I had them, even if it cost some shootability. I could be using any number of trigger lightening and shortening parts trying to get more shootability, but I'm not interested because safety.

2)Do you carry appendix but train owb? If yes, why. If you solely train your carry position, why?

AIWB exclusively. I think there is merit to both approaches of using one set of gear exclusively (or for a long time), and to varying gear. The first way you get the deepest familiarity, the second way forces you to learn different things than the first way will force you to learn. I go for the deep familiarity approach myself. Quite honestly, this is probably little more than a hangover of the deep-seated Timmy principle of 'train like you expect to fight.' It's one of the good ways to do things, and I haven't felt a need or desire to change that, so I have just run with it. That's what motivates me to use one set of gear exclusively, but it's emotionally acceptable to me because I think I sufficiently mitigate and manage safety issues with that set of gear. If my life circumstances were different, and I were stuck carrying in some manner that I didn't think was safe enough to use in higher-volume square range training, I would probably switch to the other approach.

*this is more of a gear question*:
3) Do square range advantages always influence you to change to that gear?

For example, if you can pick up a fiber optic front better in good lighting does that mean you no longer use night sights on your carry gun?

Definitely not. If perceived performance advantages on the square range were the only, or strongest, controlling factor in my decisions, I would probably be carrying a 2011, Cajunized CZ, or maybe a Roland-esque Glock or similar. At the very least, I would have a way easier trigger in my existing Glock.

Maybe that's a little ironic, because I do in fact use a FO front and black rear sight. That's a decision I've considered carefully, and without rehashing the whole discussion, I would just note that there isn't a consensus on that issue even in the BTDT crowd. So I think it's also worth considering that an individual person might lean a little more toward performance on some specific point, and more toward safety on some other specific point.

[RevolverRob]

Risk - Great game, lots of fun with knowledgeable friends. Always prepare yourself for several hours of playing time. Eventually, someone will get pissed off and become overly competitive. Secure Africa, it offers the best centralized advantage in the game, the downside is you open yourself to regular attacks.

How do you measure risk when it comes to carrying a fire arm?

Oh...that kind of risk...

1)Does shoot-ability outweigh safety?

For example, longer first pull (TDA,LEM,DAK, DAO) or manual safety on a gun instead of something like a G19? *I understand all of these guns can be shot to high levels/carried safely but some have been labeled safer or easier*

I'm not sure I separate these two. I shoot guns the best that I am most comfortable with. There are a couple of exceptions, I would never carry a Smith 952 for example. Great gun, shoots phenomenally well for me, but the safety-arrangement and single-action nature is not conducive to effective carry, without exceptionally large amounts of practice. But - basically, I view the majority of guns as inherently safe - as long as I do my part to keep them safe. Exceptions being guns that are not drop-safe for instance or broken guns that may slam-fire, etc. But these guns shouldn't be carried or used.

As far as the trigger selection goes. I think we, here at P-F, spend a lot of time discussing the safety of the trigger. I advocate, and some may disagree, that you should carry whatever works best for you, because the safest trigger is the one that you can use the best under all circumstances. Folks with a lot more experience pointing guns at people than I have, suggest that longer/heavier pulls tend to work better at avoiding negligent discharges during high-stress events. Especially, in cases where the person pointing the gun does not absolutely train trigger control and shooting daily or even weekly. For many here, folks who are dry-firing everyday or multiple times a week, trigger control on lighter/shorter triggers may not be a problem at all.

It's difficult to quantify what makes a trigger "the best" for you. But in my experience the best way is to shoot a variety of guns and figure out what makes 1) Intuitive sense to your brain. 2) What allows you the highest degree of confidence in your shot placement. - That trigger type may not be the best trigger on the planet, but when you use it, you want absolute confidence that your movement of it won't disrupt the sights and therefore the bullet is going where you want it.

For me, DAO guns, LEM guns, TDA guns, SAO guns, and finally striker guns are my preferred order. I can pick up a DAO .38 Special revolver and KNOW the bullets will go where I want if I do my part. And the tens of thousands of hours I've been shooting and dryfiring DAO guns allows me great confidence in my technique and use. It's largely the same with the heavier weight LEM's...the longer lighter LEM doesn't do it quite the same for me.

2)Do you carry appendix but train owb? If yes, why. If you solely train your carry position, why?

Yes.

Train OWB? No.

Solely AIWB, why? - Because I want my default actions to be precisely how they would be when I'm carrying a loaded gun. I train AIWB with a loaded gun, only on the range. At home, I use a blue gun or airsoft gun to work on draws, just to be redundant in my safety.

*this is more of a gear question*:
3) Do square range advantages always influence you to change to that gear?

For example, if you can pick up a fiber optic front better in good lighting does that mean you no longer use night sights on your carry gun?

No. Square range work constitutes about 80% of my live-fire shooting, but only about 40% of my firearms training. I dry-fire 3-5x a week and my carry guns are defensive use weapons first, target shooting guns, second. - I have guns I use for shooting paper and even steel targets for competition. They are different guns and optimized for those competitions. That said, I frequently do use carry guns and prefer to default to a carry gun when shooting practical competitions. But if I'm shooting competitive Bullseye, it's not going to be with an LEM P30...

am genuinely interested to see where people have ended up or if their opinions have stayed the same

Hopefully, folks have grown and developed in their own methods, training, and techniques. I know I have. When I first started here, I was shooting a 3rd Gen Smith and a J-Frame and treating them interchangeably and I was carrying them OWB or pocket carry. I quickly discovered by practical application of drills, that I couldn't interchange as well as I thought I could. And further, I couldn't shoot either of them when swapping back and forth, as well as I could if I focused on one or the other. Realizing this, sent me down a few paths looking at different platforms, there were a couple of M&Ps, an M&P CORE, a Beretta 92, a couple of BHPs, even a few 3-4" .357s of various types. And I ultimately found some satisfaction in the Kahr CW9 in AIWB. But changing circumstances in my life, dictate a change to a double-stack 9mm with quality night-sights and a high-degree of accuracy. My desire to utilize my own experience in DAO/TDA guns led me to HK LEMs. That's where I've been for a bit now and I'm working through the kinks, but finding it to be much closer to the correct system for me.

[OnionsAndDragons]

1) For me it is a give/take. I still shoot a G19 slightly better overall than my carry gun a p2000. I group better when pushing speed on the Glock. But, I find the safety of having a hammer to thumb upon reholster and the edge of the LEM during thinking and discernment exercises to be worth that trade. I may reconsider when my Gadgets arrive.

2) I try to train the way I carry (aiwb). Depending on the work being done, I won't necessarily get twisted up if I have to run a SS holster. For example, if I take some instruction that is mostly about trigger work and precision and not a bunch of draws from concealment, that's cool. If it is for scenario training or concealed carry oriented training, I will likely skip it if the instructor won't allow me to demonstrate safety with and run my EDC setup.

3) I wouldn't say always, but paper punching data gets taken into consideration. I'm considering fiber for one of my P2000 right now due to my accuracy improvement with them on a Glock. I always carry a light, I can shoot black/black sights just fine, and I don't spend much time out after dark. So, I'm considering if that benefit of fiber outweighs the loss of Tritium in corner cases for me. If I could get TCAP sights for HKs, I'd do that and split the difference.