A solution for illogical 10 rd mag limits

[Bigghoss]

Are there any pistols known for reliable use with magazines that have been limited to 10 rounds? I've had issues as descried with three different Glock 19s. Moved onto a CZ P01 which has been less than reliable as well, not even sure how to begin trouble shooting that.

Not sure where to go from here .

The only one I have personal experience with is my Ruger P95dc that I bought in 2004 so it came with 10-round mags. The factory 10's for that gun have been 100% and I still use them at the range. The guns themselves have been out of production for a few years but they can still be easily found used for well under $400 and were known for their reliability and durability and there is still decent aftermarket support for them.

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party. I am a sample of one. Having shot Glocks extensively since 1991 and nearly exclusively since 2005, I offer the following-
1. Based on my direct/vicarious experience over thousands of USPSA and IDPA stages from 1991 to date
2. Training with multiple agencies from 1997-to date firing tens of thousands of rounds
3. Training with multiple Tier One Trainers to include Tom Givens, Randy Cain, TLG, Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, Gunsite Cadre etc
4. Relying on SMEs like Doc, Surf and others

The amalgam of the above makes me firmly believe

10 round Glock mags in G19, G17, G22 and G31 are all markedly less reliable than their std. capacity counterparts. I do not have enough exposure to G20 or 21 10 round mags to have an informed opinion.

I fully concur with a licensed professional wishing to decline the opportunity to be a test case by using "pinned" or other non OEM solutions to limit a magazine that was "born" as a standard capacity one.

I fully concur that the solution to date is workable, repeatable, reliable and damned elegant with minimal out of pocket expense, particularly when compared to acquiring to firearms and supporting equipment.

YMMV Greatly,

David Barnes
VCD Grips

PS-I am not your lawyer, I am not giving Doc or anyone else legal advice.

[Shellback]

No you are not. The new Magazine Limit laws, which ban possession of even pre-ban mags, include an exemption now for retired officers as well. Previously, retirees could not possess standard capacity mags after they left their agency, unless acquired before the ban. The new law removes that restriction, but bans them for everyone else. A deliberate attempt to drive a wedge between LEO's and the public on this issue, I believe.

And licensed gunsmiths are exempt as well. Laws like this get me heated. Not at the police, or the gunsmith, but the shitheads who enact and support these types of laws.

Same thing applies to making retired LEOs exempt from the CA campus carry ban. Complete and utter bullshit.

[ScotchMan]

Clobbersaurus--A large West Coast PD tested neutered 10 rd G17 mags and demonstrated reduced reliability and numerous malfunctions--this was posted and discussed at the time approx 6-10 years ago. This year, an additional test using neutered 10 rd G19 mags was conducted, as noted in posts #168 and 179 here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ability/page18. In each Glock Armorer Course I have taken, the Glock Rep has clearly stated the neutered 10 rd magazines are NOT as reliable as the correct standard capacity magazines designed for the pistol and to NOT rely on the neutered 10 rd magazines for duty or defensive use.

Chance--Some do, some don't. For example, the S&W neutered 10 rd mags feed perfectly, but some fail to drop free of the pistol on reloads.

TGS--Yes, Magblocks would be great if they were legal, however, the situation has become murky, as CA DOJ has not definitively ruled on the legality of the Magblock under the new law. Unfortunately, the language of the law can be interpreted to read that Magblocks will NOT be allowed and there are numerous rumblings/rumors that some of the more aggressively anti-firearms rights CA DA's are going prosecute for them. I am not sure I want to be a test case...

Trev1572--As previously posted, we also reached out to Glock and tried the neutered 10 rd G17 springs in neutered 10 rd G19 mags; this still lead to numerous malfunctions in G19's that previously had run perfectly with standard capacity magazines. Changing the followers also did not eliminate the issue.

I have compelling evidence based on my own, and others' experiences, that the follower is the only difference in terms of reliability. I have 100% reliability on my G19 10 round magazines with 9mm3 followers. I did have issues with the 2183 followers that they came with. The 2183 follower was hastily developed when Glock realized that you could sometimes fit an 11th found in a 10 round magazine with a 9mm3 follower. Changing out my followers instantly resolved all of my issues.

I keep reading that the 10 round magazines are unreliable, and now see a SME who has forgotten more than I know about this stuff cutting on a G19 to use G26 mags. But I rarely see the followers mentioned. If there is another aspect of the magazine that hamstrings reliability I would be VERY interested in reading about that, but so far I've seen nothing to make me believe it is anything other than the 2183 followers drastically changing the angle of the topmost round.

I am not able to fit an 11th round in my magazines, so I feel comfortable that they are legal. I carry a Glock 19 with 10 round mags, and there are no 2183 followers anywhere in my house. Would be interested in reading more about any testing where the 9mm3-equipped 10 round magazines still induced failures that a 15 round magazine did not. I see this in the quoted thread: "The test was stopped and the OEM 10 rd 2183 followers were all changed to OEM #3 followers. An additional 500 rounds of AE9FP were fired through the pistols--again ALL of the pistols exhibited magazine related malfunctions..."

What else is different in the magazine? I wonder if there is a gun/magazine combination at play, ie some 10 round magazines with the proper follower work in some guns, but not others? Something seems fishy.

ETA: just noticed Doc's test included 10 different pistols. This makes no sense to me. Living in NY, and being engrossed in the defensive pistol world, I know multiple people who have no issues when using the 9mm3 followers. In fact, the only issue I've consistently seen is the first round causing a jam on G26s, and instructors advising to download the mags by 1 (something I have not seen myself, but I know instructors who preach it as SOP with a G26).

Something else has to be different, otherwise maybe the magazines know when they are in a free state and start misbehaving intentionally. What vintage are the magazines in the test? Mine are all from 2014 to now, maybe Glock did change something? Maybe the spring tension is too tight and they need to wear in a bit? Mine had malfunctions when they were new, but also had 2183 followers, so if you need the springs to relax a bit for reliability that might be a possibility?

[Exiledviking]

Based on a tip from Glock, we tried neutered 10 rd G17 springs in the neutered 10 rd G19 mag bodies, along with "9 mm3" followers. Unfortunately all the modified magazines exhibited feeding failures when shooting Federal AE9FP 147gr FMJ practice ammo, most consistently being "nose-dive" failures to feed with the 4th or 5th round.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....086#post522086

We recently conducted a second test of Glock OEM G19 10 round reduced capacity magazines. Ten 3rd gen G19's (ser #GXP, MBG, PMW, PUU, PYT, RRY, VKS, XBF, WNB, WWK) were used; all of the pistols had previously proven extremely reliable feeding and functioning when using standard capacity Glock OEM 15 & 17 round magazines shooting Federal AE9FP 147 gr FMJ practice ammunition, as well as Federal P9HST2 147 gr JHP and Winchester RA9T 147 gr JHP duty ammunition. Ten new OEM Glock G19 10 rd reduced capacity magazines were used. The intent was to fire 100 rds through each pistol using AE9FP practice ammunition fired from a G19 reduced capacity magazine. However, after 500 rounds, ALL of the pistols exhibited magazine related failures to feed and function. The test was stopped and the OEM 10 rd 2183 followers were all changed to OEM #3 followers. An additional 500 rounds of AE9FP were fired through the pistols--again ALL of the pistols exhibited magazine related malfunctions...

Note that in the mid-2000's we did a similar test where we used ten reduced capacity 10 rd OEM G17 mags, along with 10 standard capacity OEM 17 rd G17 mags--ALL of the 10 rd magazines demonstrated feeding malfunctions, while NONE of the standard capacity mags had any problems. In that test, several of the OEM 10 rd G17 magazines exhibited improved function when #3 followers were substituted, but NONE of the reduced capacity 9 mm Glock magazines functioned as reliably as standard capacity 9 mm Glock magazines.

For those in states which idiotically limit magazine capacity, Glock 26 10 rd OEM magazines function reliably--so using a G26 or cut G19 is a possibility, but not ideal due to the short grip inhibiting magazine changes. The neutered S&W 10 rd OEM M&P9 & M&P9c magazines seem to have no problems reliably feeding, however, they often fail to drop free, unlike the standard capacity S&W OEM M&P9 mags which drop free with ease. S&W OEM 10 rd M&P45 magazines generally function reliably.

For the record, I despise neutered magazines; their is NO logic behind the artificial bureaucratic mandates that require their use, especially given that the increased likelihood of inducing a malfunction using a reduced capacity magazine could prove catastrophic in a defensive encounter...

[raks]

Just don't drop them on bare concrete, the HK 10 rounders with the hard plastic baseplate will crack at the tabs that lock into the mag body and you'll be out a mag.

Have you seen this problem with 10 round P30 mags? I did smash a few 10 round USP mags this way but I've never had a problem with P30 10 round base plates and we compete indoors for 6+ months of the year here. My 10 round p30 mags did crack on the spines after much dropping/practice reloads but no problems with the base plates & locking tabs.

[TGS]

Have you seen this problem with 10 round P30 mags? I did smash a few 10 round USP mags this way but I've never had a problem with P30 10 round base plates and we compete indoors for 6+ months of the year here. My 10 round p30 mags did crack on the spines after much dropping/practice reloads but no problems with the base plates & locking tabs.

I haven't owned any 10 round P30 mags so I can't comment. I bought the 10 round P2000 mags for the range because I got 5 for $14 each.

[Street Survival]

For what it's worth, I just finished up an Advanced Glock Armorer's Course at the Fairfield Police Dept in CT. The Lead Glock Instructor, Scotty Banks told Connecticut users to use the #3 follower for better reliability in their 10 round magazines.

[DocGKR]

As noted above, neither the #3 followers, nor the stronger mag springs suggested by Glock worked in our testing of neutered 10 rd G17 and G19 mags to obtain the near 100% reliability demonstrated by standard capacity 9 mm Glock magazines.

[Rex G]

I like this! I had already considered adding a of bit material to the grip frame of a G26; this is a stronger solution, and has the advantage of an accessory rail, plus the usual advantages of a longer sight radius. My wife wants to travel extensively in some ten-round-limit states, and LEOSA does not apply to local magazine capacity limits. A G26 is just a bit short in the grip for both of us.

A G43 may be a more-size-efficient option, but the pad of my trigger finger does not fall naturally onto the trigger face, as is the case with double-column-mag Glocks, so it would be a matter of learning a totally new trigger finger placment, which is something I would rather not do again in this lifetime.