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Thread: Standing Rock protestor injury/LTL devices question

  1. #1
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Standing Rock protestor injury/LTL devices question

    So, I am sure many of you are familiar with the Standing Rock protests that are ongoing in ND. I am sure many of you are also aware that a protestor was recently very seriously injured by some kind of explosive/concussive device and was flown to Minneapolis for surgery at the U of M. You can see photos that are allegedly of the protestor & her injuries by clicking this link here. Graphic images so viewer discretion is advised.

    The cause of her injuries seems to be hotly debated. Protestors are saying this is the result of a concussion grenade or other LTL weapon deployed by LE that "exploded on her arm". LE is saying this is the result of her or her fellow protestors attempting to deploy a homemade explosive device/IED. Either way, based on the photos, it seems like a really serious injury that could have only been caused by very close proximity to an explosive of some kind.

    My question is this: Do LE have access to or routinely use LTL devices that could cause this kind of injury? If so, what are those devices? Is this something that is seen commonly or has historically occurred when these devices were deployed?

    I ask because the only similar grenades I can think of I believe are hand-thrown and seem unlikely to just land on her arm and blow up. That said, I don't know what I don't know, and the very little I do know about LTL concussion grenades I learned from playing Rainbow 6 and watching Cops. I also don't know if this looks like an injury caused by a home-made explosive, or if so, what kind. Seems like a very focal injury that spared her hands, suggesting that at least if it was a home-made device she was probably not carrying it when it went off. Either way, I don't really know much about either. Any/all input is welcome.

    Also - just to make this clear - not interested in having a conversation about the politics or the protests at all. Seems controversial, not really my thing and probably not the scope of this sub-forum. This is mostly to better inform my understanding of her injuries + their mechanism.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 11-23-2016 at 12:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    LTL is "less than lethal" not "non-lethal".

    At first glance, due to the lack of apparent scorching/melting, burns and damage to the chest area of the jacket, that was probably not caused by an explosive or any LE device. It really looks like a superficial gunshot wound from a rifle or shotgun. But that's just what I'm pulling out of my ass based off a couple internet photos.
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  3. #3
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    LTL is "less than lethal" not "non-lethal".

    At first glance, due to the lack of apparent scorching/melting, burns and damage to the chest area of the jacket, that was probably not caused by an explosive or any LE device. It really looks like a superficial gunshot wound from a rifle or shotgun. But that's just what I'm pulling out of my ass based off a couple internet photos.
    Yeah, I agree, there doesn't appear to be much in the way of fire/burn; maybe some on the wooly synthetic lining of her jacket but definitely not a lot. I agree that it looks like a very focused injury too. Supposedly the surgeons removed "shrapnel" from her arm during surgery but I have no idea what that actually means.

  4. #4
    There are documented instances of flash-bangs causing injury like that when they detonate in proximity or contact with someone's body, so it's not completely beyond the scope of imagination that those injuries could have been caused by a LTL grenade.

    Although with that being said, I'm deeply skeptical of any claims made by the #noDAPL smacktards since they've been caught lying on multiple occasions to further their cause.

  5. #5
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    There are documented instances of flash-bangs causing injury like that when they detonate in proximity or contact with someone's body, so it's not completely beyond the scope of imagination that those injuries could have been caused by a LTL grenade.
    Here's an article documenting the injuries sustained by a reporter caused by an LE deployed concussion grenade. Assuming the info in the link is accurate, the injury definitely looks like it could have been plausibly caused by a similar device.

  6. #6
    The take-away I got out of this incident was the deployment of IEDs...that should be an eye-opener to my fellow LEOs...

  7. #7
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    The counter story, on NPR this morning, is that LE did not deploy any flash bangs that night. Typically, you don't throw just one. Had there been a history of other flash bangs deployed that night, which I'm sure would be captured on several hundred smart phones, I'd give the story more credence.
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  8. #8
    I suppose anything is possible - but had a buddy who had a bang go off as he removed from his vest to store in his vehicle. It burned his arm and hand pretty badly but nothing like what's in those photos. There were also pics a while back in the media of a fed (DoD had given LE some that were bad) who had one cook off on his vest while he was seated in his car. Lots of burns on him and the seat.

    I can't imagine an injury like that from a bang unless she was holding it in an attempt to throw it back. But I'm no expert. Maybe some of our Tac Med or bomb tech folks will weigh in on this.

  9. #9
    My old team was notorious for catching everything on fire, and some very unlucky NFD deployments directly on to people prior to changes in deployment criteria from experience (visual confirmation). If it was possible to put a NFD device on a flammable bedspread or curtains....my guys were the ones. With that said, and experience going back to the days of actual "Stun Grenades", I have never seen anything like that ever. I have seen that at the morgue involving accidental explosions of real munitions (several large military bases in our county) as well as accidental explosions with other devices...often illegal. My opinion is the device was from her side and not from the LE side.
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  10. #10
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    The only NFD I'm aware of that could cause an injury similar to that is the Omni blast 100 (I think that's the model no). The plastic body fragments and if you were to tamp it on flesh, it's ugly. I'm personally aware of a role player rolling over on one in some foreign student training. It's been a lot of years ago but a quick web search still shows a plastic casing.
    Last edited by LSP552; 11-23-2016 at 05:57 PM.

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