Trigger characteristics -- Glock vs VP9

[miller_man]

Lot of good reading in many of these last few posts.

While I usually despite repetition, I started shooting clean FAST with the G4 17, and decided to see how long I could go with out a miss. Got to ten clean and gave up. It has been many months since I shot a FAST.

I hate you. No, really I enjoy reading all your stuff and seeing all you do - envious of your skill. I strive to be there some day. That is very impressive.

[GJM]

Some days are better than other days, and I have a long memory for good days, and forget the bad ones quickly. Two things come to mind about the FAST shooting today. First, even though I was on the timer, never once did I think about time when I was shooting. Second, I didn't see my actual hits on any of the 3x5 shots. At times, with close targets like dots or the 3x5, I have to fight the urge to eye sprint with a close visible target. It is a lot easier for me to press the trigger with full attention on the front sight, as opposed to dividing attention between front sight and target.

[MGW]

Some days are better than other days, and I have a long memory for good days, and forget the bad ones quickly. Two things come to mind about the FAST shooting today. First, even though I was on the timer, never once did I think about time when I was shooting. Second, I didn't see my actual hits on any of the 3x5 shots. At times, with close targets like dots or the 3x5, I have to fight the urge to eye sprint with a close visible target. It is a lot easier for me to press the trigger with full attention on the front sight, as opposed to dividing attention between front sight and target.

Could you expand on this? What do you mean by "eye sprint"?

I actually like the idea of shooting drills not thinking about time. I'm not sure I can do this while running a timer though. I'm wired to go as hard/fast as I can at everything if there is a measurement involved.

I learned a lot from Tom Givens last summer about focusing on accuracy. There were no timers involved until the last casino drill of the day. The focus was always on accuracy. Negative taping of the targets, only pasting misses, further reinforced accuracy. Despite that, I gained confidence as they day went on. I learned how to shoot as fast as the target and my sights would allow.

I heard Gabe explain his standards on PPS and I saw them on a video somewhere. Can't find them now. If Gabe doesn't mind, can someone post them?

[GJM]

Could you expand on this? What do you mean by "eye sprint"?

I actually like the idea of shooting drills not thinking about time. I'm not sure I can do this while running a timer though. I'm wired to go as hard/fast as I can at everything if there is a measurement involved.

I learned a lot from Tom Givens last summer about focusing on accuracy. There were no timers involved until the last casino drill of the day. The focus was always on accuracy. Negative taping of the targets, only pasting misses, further reinforced accuracy. Despite that, I gained confidence as they day went on. I learned how to shoot as fast as the target and my sights would allow.

I heard Gabe explain his standards on PPS and I saw them on a video somewhere. Can't find them now. If Gabe doesn't mind, can someone post them?

To me, eye sprinting is when your focus shifts from the front sight to checking hits on the target, and is most common on a close target with something like two inch dots during a multi-shot drill.

This describes Gabe's school test:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-s-school-test

Most of the time, I start with a timer, even if I don't look at the time, so I am pretty used to hearing the beep. Learned that from TGO.

[breakingtime91]

This thread is really interesting to me. I have gotten to the point that I am mad that I just didn't stick with a glock 19 and grab a gadget. Atleast that way I can have a "invisible gun", get sights I actually like, and just improve as a shooter. That said, I shoot the p2000 well and am probably just frustrated with my current lack of range time.


*I realize I am eating crow by saying this lol

[MGW]

I've followed this discussion with a lot of interest. I'm concurrently reading an old P30 thread that really ties in well with this discussion.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....21-Why-the-P30. I'm kind of curious if the P30 has fallen out of favor compared to other choices? I was surprised to see the EL was the OP for that thread.

I've been struggling the last few months to settle on a pistol for concealed carry. Ideally I would like to have the same pistol for carry and occasional competition. I've been working primarily with a VP9, 229-1, and Glock 19.

I have the most rounds through two different Gen 4 19's. I am extremely inconsistent with this pistol. If I'm really having a good day I shoot it really well. Other mediocre days and I'm terrible with the 19. I have zero emotional attachment to the Glock platform. It's like a hammer. It's a tool to be used. I've worked the hardest to learn how to shoot this pistol well and have honestly given up on it.

I love the 229. It's the most comfortable of the three to carry. I love the trigger on it. I'm not as fast with it but the most accurate compared to the Glock and HK. It's also the most unreliable of the three. It's plagued by occasional failures to extract. It can be a pretty difficult failure to correct under stress. I trust my ability to shoot the pistol but not the pistol.

I really like the VP9. I'm almost as accurate with it as the Sig. It's been 100% reliable. I really like the trigger. It's easy to shoot well. It's the least comfortable of the three to carry. It's just a hair to long. I'm also less comfortable carry a striker fired pistol at 1:00.

So a long off topic post to say I'm stuck. I'm looking at V1 P30s as a possible solution. I have zero experience with a LEM trigger and can't find one to rent.

Is there a reason the P30 is talked about less than it used to be? Is the trigger that difficult to learn compared to say a TDA? Is it that much more difficult to shoot than a VP9? It seems to check all the boxes. Accurate, reliable, concealable, decent after market support, maybe not ideal but capable as a competition pistol.

Yes there is some paralysis by analysis going but loosing confidence in the Glock and Sig has rattled my cage a bit.

[spinmove_]

Some days are better than other days, and I have a long memory for good days, and forget the bad ones quickly. Two things come to mind about the FAST shooting today. First, even though I was on the timer, never once did I think about time when I was shooting. Second, I didn't see my actual hits on any of the 3x5 shots. At times, with close targets like dots or the 3x5, I have to fight the urge to eye sprint with a close visible target. It is a lot easier for me to press the trigger with full attention on the front sight, as opposed to dividing attention between front sight and target.

This is very much the reason why the Dot Torture drill is the bane of my existence and why I've yet to clean one. I will say though that because of this drill, it's forced me to really work on my Gabe-O-Vision to push my precision on small targets up close while tracking the sights. I'm close to cleaning my first DT drill, might even be this next range trip.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[spinmove_]

I've followed this discussion with a lot of interest. I'm concurrently reading an old P30 thread that really ties in well with this discussion.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....21-Why-the-P30. I'm kind of curious if the P30 has fallen out of favor compared to other choices? I was surprised to see the EL was the OP for that thread.

I've been struggling the last few months to settle on a pistol for concealed carry. Ideally I would like to have the same pistol for carry and occasional competition. I've been working primarily with a VP9, 229-1, and Glock 19.

I have the most rounds through two different Gen 4 19's. I am extremely inconsistent with this pistol. If I'm really having a good day I shoot it really well. Other mediocre days and I'm terrible with the 19. I have zero emotional attachment to the Glock platform. It's like a hammer. It's a tool to be used. I've worked the hardest to learn how to shoot this pistol well and have honestly given up on it.

I love the 229. It's the most comfortable of the three to carry. I love the trigger on it. I'm not as fast with it but the most accurate compared to the Glock and HK. It's also the most unreliable of the three. It's plagued by occasional failures to extract. It can be a pretty difficult failure to correct under stress. I trust my ability to shoot the pistol but not the pistol.

I really like the VP9. I'm almost as accurate with it as the Sig. It's been 100% reliable. I really like the trigger. It's easy to shoot well. It's the least comfortable of the three to carry. It's just a hair to long. I'm also less comfortable carry a striker fired pistol at 1:00.

So a long off topic post to say I'm stuck. I'm looking at V1 P30s as a possible solution. I have zero experience with a LEM trigger and can't find one to rent.

Is there a reason the P30 is talked about less than it used to be? Is the trigger that difficult to learn compared to say a TDA? Is it that much more difficult to shoot than a VP9? It seems to check all the boxes. Accurate, reliable, concealable, decent after market support, maybe not ideal but capable as a competition pistol.

Yes there is some paralysis by analysis going but loosing confidence in the Glock and Sig has rattled my cage a bit.

The G19 is certainly an unforgiving bugger and I wouldn't claim it's for everyone. Hell, it's just barely ok for me IMHO, but that's partly due to the fact that I've fought like hell to learn how to shoot the damn thing ok. I also shot my P229-1 far more consistently than any G19 and, in hindsight, I wonder if I may have screwed myself by not simply trying harder to carry the P229-1 and convincing myself that the G19 was simply the logistical end-all/be-all way to go.

Have you tried swapping the extractor on your 229? I'm wondering if you were able to work out its extraction issues that maybe you could save yourself from hopping to yet another pistol.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[miller_man]

This is very much the reason why the Dot Torture drill is the bane of my existence and why I've yet to clean one. I will say though that because of this drill, it's forced me to really work on my Gabe-O-Vision to push my precision on small targets up close while tracking the sights. I'm close to cleaning my first DT drill, might even be this next range trip.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

SOOO me. Looking into keeping more sight focus during next session.

Some days are better than other days, and I have a long memory for good days, and forget the bad ones quickly. Two things come to mind about the FAST shooting today. First, even though I was on the timer, never once did I think about time when I was shooting. Second, I didn't see my actual hits on any of the 3x5 shots. At times, with close targets like dots or the 3x5, I have to fight the urge to eye sprint with a close visible target. It is a lot easier for me to press the trigger with full attention on the front sight, as opposed to dividing attention between front sight and target.

Pure gold - this is SO speaking to me right now. First, I need my memory to work for me that way - usually it takes a day or two after live fire before I begin to look at the positives in my last shooting session. Second, that may be unlocking a LOT for me on the FAST. Just remembering my best (and one of few clean) FAST - told myself to SLOW down and just get my hits (don't worry about time). Got my hits and had best time yet.

[SLG]

Send the 229 back to Sig. Make them make it right. Then use it all the time.