"Fist Fire" Grip...? Proper placement of the first 2-knuckles along the Trigger Guard

[WTAprill]

Just wondering: are there any other topics regarding which it's acceptable to opine authoritatively without a single second of exposure to the material, or is FF the only one? Interesting that "I've never taken the course but let me tell you what's wrong with it" flies without criticism on this subject.
Pretty low level of discourse...

[JustOneGun]

DR did not invent this to be a point shooting technique. He had to come up with a different way to grip and drive the gun because of severe tendonitis. He also was rapidly losing eyesight due to the same thing causing the tendonitis. He had to figure out how to shoot accurately while not being able to see a clear set of sights. If you had done any research you would also know DR developed a set of sights to work better with his failing eyesight.

Folks don't want to practice unsighted fire? Don't. It doesn't matter to me. They're the only ones that will ultimately be responsible for their personal safety. If they have ever been in a position where they have needed a gun but were too close to extend the gun into their line of sight, they've used point shooting. If they are ever hit in the face as part of the criminal assault and are cut, bleeding into their eyes and now have diminished vision when it's time to go to guns? They'll need a way to consistently index and shoot a pistol without using the sights. If they are ever in a position where they've pepper sprayed someone and suffered cross contamination then need to go to guns but can't fully see? They might need to know how to shoot without seeing the sights. IF none of those factors ever influence their violent encounter, then good for them. Get on the sights and do good work. I posted my email address so the OP could ask anything he wanted. How is that saying I won't discuss it with people, except saying I won't discuss it in online forums? Posting my email is encouraging him to discuss it one on one.

One of the main reasons I don't discuss this on forums is demonstrated by you. You are deep in the Dunning Kruger effect on this topic. You know nothing about what is taught, how it originated, say you don't know me or what I teach, aren't interested in taking a class or trying to understand what is involved, yet, continue to post on the subject. Amazing.

Paul,

Middlebrooks says he invented it and he says it's for point shooting. I've seen many of his videos. He makes a point in all of them to use and point out a pistol that does not have sights. It's not Dunning Kruger on my part. As Caleb said, I can do what he does because the awareness necessary for point shooting comes faster learning with sights. Smaller calibration.

But none of that means it's a good thing to teach to a new shooter like the OP. Experience has show me and others that learning to point shoot first and then moving on to sighted fire really retards progress in sighted fire.

Ultimately what is the clincher is that when we put students who are about equal in skill (total novice, just standard military training) using sighted and point shooting they shoot about the same speed. i.e. there's no benefit to point shooting. But their accuracy sucks on the point shooter's part. They have a hard time gaining feedback without experience. Sighted fire is, well they can see the darn sight. As others have said, I don't need to worry about me or Middlebooks. We train enough to get the gains we need.

When that new officer/civilian gets robbed on day two after training they perform worse with point shooting. Isn't that the whole idea behind Givens' real world success? If a person trains to use that front sight and they get cut and bleeding they will point shoot at the same or better level as if they trained the same amount to point shoot. Same outcome. For a new shooter, isn't flash front sight shooting just point shooting with two body positions (retention and eye level) and a smaller calibration? And seeing that sight also sends a great amount of feed back during those middle distances. There's no benefit to all to point shooting the middle ground as we've found time and again in timed evolution and force on force. All that is marketing to sell books.

You said that you didn't care if we practiced point shooting or not. We're each responsible for ourselves. That's fair enough. But how you teach point shooting in relation to sighted fire can be a real problem for the future of the student. If you do it wrong you might be screwing them up for a long time. That would be your fault. Just because we don't track all our students and no one will come back and blame us doesn't mean they might go out and get themselves killed because of what or how we taught. We should be thinking about how and what we teach at a deeper level or down to the geek level as I call it in order that our students don't pay the price for what we get wrong. Or put another way, perhaps I'm not suffering from Dunning Kruger effect. Perhaps it's you that suffer from it and that allows you to think that I am less than you? As Paul Thorn says, "You might be wrong."

Hmmmm....

[Paul Sharp]

...For Middlebrook founder of Fist-Fire just do it his way and it will work. That's marketing. What I've found that he often doesn't know why something works, he just name drops people he knows and then throws in stuff to sound scientific. Even his version of thumbs forward grip is extremely hard to do for someone with average to small hands in relation to the pistol size. It takes a lot of muscle to make it right. Lessening the arc of the support wrist makes it much more effective for most people.

He's taken modern shooting principles that most of us would agree on, tweaked them for how they work for him and added in point shooting. Named it a cool name and put it on sale...

Again, amazing. This snippet from your post demonstrates complete and utter ignorance regarding the subject and yet still you post.


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[Paul Sharp]

Dude, I've spoken with DR thousands of times as well as spent hours upon hours with him directly coaching me. As a matter of fact I spoke with him a few days ago.

But you watched video.

I bow to your superior knowledge on a system I've been given permission to teach while you've never even taken a class.

II can't swing it any longer. I don't have the patience for people that have no experience in a subject offering an opinion.


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