"Fist Fire" Grip...? Proper placement of the first 2-knuckles along the Trigger Guard

[JustOneGun]

I guess the part where I posted my frikkin email address so he could ask me any questions on Fist Fire he'd like to ask and I'd do my best to answer..., without paying me, was missed by you?

Nope it wasn't missed. But you saying you don't discuss that with people anymore and then telling the OP to email you is something that I have no problem calling you out on. In my experience learning to do what the person on the video is describing is not just a waste of time but is actually hard to fix in the future. It's bad, bad, bad. It's not like learning to carry a gun at 3:00 then changing to AIWB. There's something about how we use vision that really screws a person up and is very hard to overcome.

Now I have no idea if the person on the video is teaching it the way you are but he is the inventor of it. He invented it to be a point shooting technique. But you commented that you disagreed with Caleb, thus agreeing with the video? So the idea that you are going to give the OP the secret about this is something that sets most peoples alarm bells ringing. Except newbies. They sometimes just follow along.

It's like saying, "Communism is bad but that's because no one has seen how I do it. Just let me show you." My answer to both questions is, "No, don't do it."

[jetfire]

With you on that one. It was originally named by an Austrian dude that many on this forum would know. It doesn't translate into English well at all. My suggestion was to just use the German word or drop it. DRM liked it, so he kept it.

Everything sounds better in German.

Sorry I came on so strong, the only other times I've ever heard of Fist Fire it was linked to point shooting, so it was tainted (hahahahaha) by association. I'm always surprised at the number of different ways different people approach something so seemingly as simple as "gripping the handgun."

[Paul Sharp]

Thanks for the replies guys... Hhhmmm... One thing different between Pistol Forums and the other forum I'm registered with, some of you are ALREADY awake. Some, at least 3-hrs - this makes for plenty of responses to go through by the time I wake up here in the West Coast. *LOL*

Going back to the original post - I guess I opened a can of worms here... My intent was LESS of "Fist Fire" as a 'point shooting' technique; but MORE of how it approaches GRIP.

As I've mentioned, I'm still learning - hence, the interest/curiosity...

That said, I'm trying to see the contrast between the grip above with mine. I'm 6-ft tall, and the slim Asian built. When I initially gripped my Glock 22 - the 2nd knuckle of my middle finger is right smack in the middle of the trigger guard. What Fist Fire is saying is that, the width of the trigger guard should ideally be between the 1st and 2nd knuckle - to basically assist with 'natural alignment,' to simply put.

And of course, relegating recoil management to the Support Hand.

I've been practicing this Fist Fire grip for about a month or so now, but just hit me to ask about the Pros and Cons...

Thanks in advanced!

I posted a video on youtube regarding details of the grip that many found helpful. I'm not sure if anyone has it saved but if so, that would help you understand some details regarding the grip. If it's not anywhere, I'm going to be resurrecting my youtube channel soon and will post a new version of that video. I posted a lot of material like that, and I've seen it reposted on quite a few places so you might be able to find it and as YVK mentioned, the clip posted here is 2 minutes of a 90 minute set. You can listen to guys that have zero experience with the material if you'd like, or you can check it out for yourself. I try to avoid posting opinions on things I have no experience in as that tends to be a demonstration of my own mastery of Dunning-Kruger. I've taken classes from folks that teach polar opposite material, for example I've taken classes from Tom Givens and Rob Pincus. I have opinions on the material presented by both men but my opinion is actually an educated one based on my experience training under them. When I see someone post; I've never taken a class from Tom/Rob/insert name here, but... I stop reading. They don't know what they don't know so why waste time reading further? Life's too short.

You have my email, I also suggested youtube videos you can watch to deepen your understanding of what's happening with the grip. Also based on where you live, (which I don't know), you can also probably find someone that has trained with me at one of the conferences or classes where I've taught the recoil management module who would be willing to go through the grip exercises with you to help you understand it better. At every class I teach on this material someone will ask to video me coaching them through that portion of the work so they can have a visual reference guide. If one of those folks is on this thread then they know I have no issue with them sharing the material with you if it will help you be safer, and better prepared to protect yourself or your loved ones.

[Paul Sharp]

Nope it wasn't missed. But you saying you don't discuss that with people anymore and then telling the OP to email you is something that I have no problem calling you out on. In my experience learning to do what the person on the video is describing is not just a waste of time but is actually hard to fix in the future. It's bad, bad, bad. It's not like learning to carry a gun at 3:00 then changing to AIWB. There's something about how we use vision that really screws a person up and is very hard to overcome.

Now I have no idea if the person on the video is teaching it the way you are but he is the inventor of it. He invented it to be a point shooting technique. But you commented that you disagreed with Caleb, thus agreeing with the video? So the idea that you are going to give the OP the secret about this is something that sets most peoples alarm bells ringing. Except newbies. They sometimes just follow along.

It's like saying, "Communism is bad but that's because no one has seen how I do it. Just let me show you." My answer to both questions is, "No, don't do it."

DR did not invent this to be a point shooting technique. He had to come up with a different way to grip and drive the gun because of severe tendonitis. He also was rapidly losing eyesight due to the same thing causing the tendonitis. He had to figure out how to shoot accurately while not being able to see a clear set of sights. If you had done any research you would also know DR developed a set of sights to work better with his failing eyesight.

Folks don't want to practice unsighted fire? Don't. It doesn't matter to me. They're the only ones that will ultimately be responsible for their personal safety. If they have ever been in a position where they have needed a gun but were too close to extend the gun into their line of sight, they've used point shooting. If they are ever hit in the face as part of the criminal assault and are cut, bleeding into their eyes and now have diminished vision when it's time to go to guns? They'll need a way to consistently index and shoot a pistol without using the sights. If they are ever in a position where they've pepper sprayed someone and suffered cross contamination then need to go to guns but can't fully see? They might need to know how to shoot without seeing the sights. IF none of those factors ever influence their violent encounter, then good for them. Get on the sights and do good work. I posted my email address so the OP could ask anything he wanted. How is that saying I won't discuss it with people, except saying I won't discuss it in online forums? Posting my email is encouraging him to discuss it one on one.

One of the main reasons I don't discuss this on forums is demonstrated by you. You are deep in the Dunning Kruger effect on this topic. You know nothing about what is taught, how it originated, say you don't know me or what I teach, aren't interested in taking a class or trying to understand what is involved, yet, continue to post on the subject. Amazing.

[Paul Sharp]

Everything sounds better in German.

Sorry I came on so strong, the only other times I've ever heard of Fist Fire it was linked to point shooting, so it was tainted (hahahahaha) by association. I'm always surprised at the number of different ways different people approach something so seemingly as simple as "gripping the handgun."

Don't sweat it dude, my apologies as well it's just after years of discussing this online I'm not interested in another pointshooting v sighted fire derailment when that's not what the system is about. It seems it's almost impossible to circumvent that issue.

[SLG]

I'm not a fan of fistfire, based solely on reading the book and talking to Sevigny about it. That was many years ago. I know very little about it today. That said, Paul certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but Just one gun, you are really barking up the wrong tree here. Paul is definitely not trying to sell secret sauce.

If I get a chance to take a class from Paul at some point, I'll grab it with both fists.��

[Paul Sharp]

I'm not a fan of fistfire, based solely on reading the book and talking to Sevigny about it... If I get a chance to take a class from Paul at some point, I'll grab it with both fists.��

I see what you did there.

That's completely fair to say bro, not everyone is going to dig everything I do and that's cool. I'm not sure if we've talked about it before but guys that have trained with me and DR say I do things similar but different. I look at it as Fist Fire saved my ass when my hands and elbows were too damaged to shoot the way I learned from my mod-iso instructors. My version of this has evolved over time and DR is cool with it, actually encouraging me to take it as far as I can since evolution of technique is usually a good thing.

Thanks for the kind words.

[JustOneGun]

The video that OP, all two minutes of it, is a part of some 90 minutes two disk DVD set that I have laying around somewhere. Unless you saw it all, you can't say if he's point shooter, sights shooter, rough visual reference shooter, target focus shooter, all of the above , can you?

You can grip a gun his way, other way, Weaver way , what have you way, and none of that will tell if the grip will define whether a shooter will choose to see his sights or ignore them. I don't fist fire but I can't see how you're making inferences about it on a basis of limited information.

I'm aware of the author. And in the first 15 seconds of that clip he says he invented Fist-Fire (of which he sells a DVD/book) for point shooting. To use in the guard, middle and full extension. As I pointed out before, his reasoning for doing what he's doing is actually not correct. He freely will tell you in his videos that he arrived at his shooting style as an evolution for his sore elbow, watching world class shooter, etc. i.e. he's telling you what works for him. Many people don't have the hand structure of Middlebrooks. They don't have the sore elbows as Middlebrooks. What most good instructors find that having multiple ways to teach something is good because we are not the same. But what is necessary is to understand why we are doing something. That is different than just what works for you.

For Middlebrook founder of Fist-Fire just do it his way and it will work. That's marketing. What I've found that he often doesn't know why something works, he just name drops people he knows and then throws in stuff to sound scientific. Even his version of thumbs forward grip is extremely hard to do for someone with average to small hands in relation to the pistol size. It takes a lot of muscle to make it right. Lessening the arc of the support wrist makes it much more effective for most people.

He's taken modern shooting principles that most of us would agree on, tweaked them for how they work for him and added in point shooting. Named it a cool name and put it on sale. Can you get something out of it? Maybe. But for a new person there are much better ways to learn. If self defense related I'd send someone to Tom Givens material before Middlebrooks. If competition oriented, I wouldn't give an opinion.

Again, "Just because (insert famous celebrity) can do it doesn't necessarily mean you should do it."

Sometimes fantastic shooters got there on a long personal journey. Sometimes they were natural shooters. For most it is a combination of both. None of that means they know how they got there, take the time to learn how others got there and can convert it to teaching others. Some very great shooters are actually kind of dumb.

[Peally]

It blows my mind how many videos there are of random ass internets people making up proprietary grip or shooting skills. Just grab the damn piece of plastic hard and pull the trigger, it's not rocket science.

I'm surprised I haven't seen a video on how to tense your toes when shooting yet.

[Wondering Beard]

To the OP:

I watched the video, I don't know anything about Mr. Middlebrooks and so I'm going to focus only on the grip part which is described on the video (the whole point shooting thing being entirely irrelevant to your question).

When you draw or bring up your gun to shoot at a target, whether in a fight or just on the range, you do want a natural (for you) alignment so that your sights are going to naturally be aligned with what you want to hit, the last thing you want to do is to see your gun aimed somewhere else other than where you intend to hit and then take precious time to realign your sights. The hand/arm alignment that Mr. Middlebrooks presents actually talks about makes sense for a lot of people in the general sense; in other words which knuckle is supposed to be where on the frontstrap is not as relevant as your unique hands' capability to point the gun naturally so that when you pick up the sights, you are aimed in where you want to be. Sometimes a large gun may force you to be a little offset to achieve that (the gen 2 G21 does that a little for me but I can shoot it fine), but too much offset will be bad, no matter your hands and no matter the gun. How all that works with your hands and your gun will be unique to you. What you want to achieve is a gun grip that naturally points the gun where you want to hit so that when you pick up your sights everything is nicely aligned and all you need to worry about is your trigger press (YVK makes an important point about trigger finger placement, absorb it deeply); if Mr. Middlebrooks' prescriptions enable you to do that better (and enables you to control your gun well), then go for it, if it doesn't then drop it, but don't get yourself caught up about which knuckle should be where (you'll just end up scrambling your brain about minor individual details), only focus the type of grip that gives you good results.